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To address your previous comment, I am glad you are trying to understand. Start with the materials that I suggested and maybe you will be able to get another view point. You don't have to aggree with me, but, continue to be open enough to uderstand that there is always deeper issues than what's on the surface.
As for the white men long ago, I understand that things have changed for the better in some ways, but, there's still a long way to go. I'm sure that your husband and your son may be more progressive than most and I have a lot of faith in the younger generation. I've noticed my son has a lots of close friends, that are more than associational, but, real freinds, of many different races, yet for all the years that blacks have been in this country there is still a great divide between the races. That divide is caused by lack of willingness to understand.
If it seems that we (blacks) are always crying out for understanding it's because if you are educated in this country all you ever really learn about is "white" and the contributions and greatness of whites, so we understand you, but, when do others really take the time to learn and understand about black people and what it means to be black in America, other than Martin Luther King (who is one of the greatest men this country has ever produced) but there are far more than he that has loved, contributed, and helped this country and never receive credit. Instead, all you ever hear about black is how their contribute to crime.
Okay, fair enough. I will. I agree too that it may be generational to some degree. Look, racism exists, no doubt about it. I know it. IT is not easy being black--especially if you are a male. But you take an Oprah Winfrey and she is a good example of not letting ANYONE define her. If racism was so rampant, then why does the girl have such a loyal white following? How about Obama? Oh sure, some people may hold his race against him but most of the whities I know are just happy someone with some integrity is running.... So all I am saying--and I truly hope you will consider my point--is that the white man is not the enemy. Sure, bigots exist but that doesn't mean YOU should assume those same characteristics and assume white people as a whole are evil.
When I was young I had two things going against me: I was a foreigner and I was woman. I spent my early youth trying to justify myself. You know what has changed? Me. I have decided---through education and self awareness---to expect great things from others.....and usually, it works.
I am not sure yet if I am going to follow through with the books you suggested though I might. (I just bought a ton of books from Barnes and Noble so I have to get through that first). If you get a chance, I have a book for you: Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey. The things he talks about are germane to everybody.... However, the piece that I'd love for you to read talks about what centers you.....I know I can't discuss it as eloquently as he did, but it talks about not allowing the outer world define your experience. In the most basic sense, maybe this is what i am getting at.....
Okay, thanks again for the discourse. In real life, I never get the opportunity to speak so honestly and I appreciate hearing your views.
There ya go again..starting trouble in here : )))) As an "Irish" American - I grew up eating pasta and pizza... my parents had Itialian Restaurants. My better half is from Scotland and it drive her nuts that we class ourselves as "whatever" American. She says, if you are born here, you are American..PERIOD! And she is absolutley right. I've said this before but I'll say it again - the moral majority is neither!
yes, me the whipersnapper! I like your other half!!! I agree with her.
Okay, fair enough. I will. I agree too that it may be generational to some degree. Look, racism exists, no doubt about it. I know it. IT is not easy being black--especially if you are a male. But you take an Oprah Winfrey and she is a good example of not letting ANYONE define her. If racism was so rampant, then why does the girl have such a loyal white following? How about Obama? Oh sure, some people may hold his race against him but most of the whities I know are just happy someone with some integrity is running.... So all I am saying--and I truly hope you will consider my point--is that the white man is not the enemy. Sure, bigots exist but that doesn't mean YOU should assume those same characteristics and assume white people as a whole are evil.
When I was young I had two things going against me: I was a foreigner and I was woman. I spent my early youth trying to justify myself. You know what has changed? Me. I have decided---through education and self awareness---to expect great things from others.....and usually, it works.
I am not sure yet if I am going to follow through with the books you suggested though I might. (I just bought a ton of books from Barnes and Noble so I have to get through that first). If you get a chance, I have a book for you: Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey. The things he talks about are germane to everybody.... However, the piece that I'd love for you to read talks about what centers you.....I know I can't discuss it as eloquently as he did, but it talks about not allowing the outer world define your experience. In the most basic sense, maybe this is what i am getting at.....
Okay, thanks again for the discourse. In real life, I never get the opportunity to speak so honestly and I appreciate hearing your views.
Lola
Where in the world did you get the idea that I said or think that white people as a whole are evil? I certainly never said that. To say such a thing would mean that I though some of my own white family members were evil. And I most certainly did not say that the way white people treat me holds me back in any way. I am educated, successful, a published author, I have a brilliant child, and many of the tangible accouchements of success. No, I'm not Oprah, but, you have to admit that she has a wide following of white audiences because she makes a point of not addressing issues like this in order not to step on toes. In other words she panders to her white audience. I'm not mad at her she does what she has to, to get what she wants. If you can recall she did a few issues like this in the beginning and it became too heated for her and the audiences, but, this kind of dialogue is need between the races if it is to ever be put to bed. We have to make attempts at understanding instead of blaming and name calling. Once again, I don't think you truly understand the argument here which is why I suggested the readings. I have the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People and the journal too. I don't always expect great things from others I expect them of myself. I accept great things from others when they are offered and I reject those things that aren't, but, I don't expect them. I do my work which is precisely the point I am trying to make to you. You cannot give sweeping generalizations about something you don't know or a least attempt to find out about. You have to do the work to find out about them.
What I did say is:
That people are the same, good and bad in everyone. We may have cultural or ethnic differences, but, there is only one race the human race. It was only when others on the site felt the need to point out differences in physical characteristics (i.e., color) that I felt the need to explain why color makes a difference and that is because of the legacy of "white supremacy."
Secondly, what I said was that there are things in this country that whites have done to blacks and others that may have contributed to the down trodden state of their communities because they have been denied access for so long. Again, this is something that I'm sure you will not understand because by the time you entered this country these rights that you have were already earned for you by my people who fought for them during the civil rights movement that your people were not a part of. So, you cannot compare the immigrant experience with the experience of people who have been marginalized from the time they entered here until now and have fought for rights that everyone else seem to enjoy at a greater level than the ones who actually fought for them. I have to repeat there is no experience like the black experience because unlike many others who are accepted as part of the American society once they've given up their accents, shed their cultural norms, and aligned them selves with American culture, we cannot shed our skin color.
Lastly, I'm not making excuses for the conditions of what goes on in some Black communities, I'm saying I understand how they came to be that way and suggest that those who help to create the situation (the white establishment) stop blaming the victim and running away from them because ultimately and as much as they hate to admit it where all in this mess together and you cannot run forever. So, they may as well become part of the solution and help to fix the problems they created through racism before the "rooster comes home to roost" for us all.
Please do the work, find out more about the black experience before making assumptions. I know their are many Blacks who feel that this discourse may not even be necessary, however, for those who really want to learn and heal from the racial tragedies and mistakes of this country it is necessary. Funny though, that you a Latina would be more interested in the discourse then others. I'm quite curious as to why. I don't want to assume you are taking up for your husband and son. Understand when I say white I am not generalizing to all people only the system that has been handed down to them which is a "white system of ideologies". Their are those whites who choose to believe in it and their are those who don't, but, whatever the case they all benefit from it.
For example; I'm sure that most white man are not stared at and followed around when they visit department stores your husband included he didn't create the kind of attitude that lead to that he does benefit from it, however. And hypothetically speaking, if he should notice a black man or women being followed in the store for no apparent reason other than skin color, he didn't create that climate either, but would he do anything to stop it or at least question it?
[quote=Tom Rowan;362474]What happened to being American?
"Could it be they need special treatment?
I deserve this or that because I'm African-American?
The police pick on me because I'm African-American?
They can call anyone the N word, but you can't say it to them?
Thug type mentality is acceptable because they're African-American.
They should be ashamed of all the 'Ghetto Thug' type of behavior.
Act like a scumbag, you get treated the same. "
Your comments sound like pent up rage. "They", exactly who are they? And are you 100% certain that THEY all condone "Ghetto Thug" behaviour?? As you made the case yourself THEY sometimes seem to be different depending on where you meet them, their position, class, economic status etc. THEY sound a lot like YOU.
__________________________________________________ ___________
The term African-American like every other ethinic moniker of non tribal origin was created and condoned by global society and is ficticious.
Africans come in all hues, just like Europeans, and Asians (which we used to call Oriental but had to expand to include Indians). The problem is America had a formal policy that "set apart" Blacks -- which was defined as those who were dark-skinnned or brown skinned decendents from Africa. In so creating this "policy" that originated with the Slave Trade, White became the new moniker for Americans who were both naturalized here and came from Europe.
As two central groups distinguised by a descriptive element (skin color -- other than Native Americans who were called Red), as opposed to a heritage homeland based on geography...the correction of this ill is hard to manage. We would all love to be Americans.
So should this thread be called "Why are some Americans fleeing from other Americans" It's not, because that's not where we came from......see other posters historical comments.
It takes more than just a few short decades to erase over 200 years of brainwashing.....for THEM and for YOU.
Not only is white flight contributed by inner city problems its also contributed by the Gentrification of bad areas. The gentrification of places like New Brunswick and Jersey City left alot of people displaced. They had to move to affordable housing in prodominatley white areas. And you know rest. White flight in my opinion is horrible. Just because someone youve never really seen around your house looks different then you doesnt mean you gotta move. Also blockbusting is a big thing in NJ and that contributes to it too.
Geez, are you forced integration people ever satisfied?
Whites *left* the inner city and everyone is screaming about "white flight" and how "evil" it is.
So they go back and now everyone is screaming about "gentrification" and how "evil" that is.
Why is it that whites just *have* be surrounded by blacks at all times?
Geezus, give me a break.
Crime sucks, afro culture largely sucks, every where in the world that has a large population of blacks there is nothing but problems. Why would *anyone* actually want to integrate.
"Why are some Americans fleeing from other Americans"
it's because many modern immigrants (legal or otherwise) do not integrate into America.
when my parents moved here from Europe, they learned English, adopted the local customs, etc.
they did not partake in cultural parades, they did not hang flags of the old country from their windows, did not post signs of their business in their old alphabet...
America is being colonized, plain & simple, and it has to stop.
its a confusing and outdating term. white flight and gentrification are negative terms about whites who are rapidly not being the sole financial leaders in our society. race thories to attempt to explain the world around you is unproductive. its not explaining the box that we need its getting out of it.
Food for thought: 82% of respondants in the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico chose 'white' as their race in the 2000 United States Census.
That is totally inaccurate. The culture of Puerto Rico (and Latin America in general) is very Eurocentric, Hispanophile and white supremacist, and it benefits Latinos to self-identify as white.
About 50% of Puerto Ricans are white, and the other 50% is black, mulatto or mestizo (mixed white and Native) or Asian.
slavery is an insidious thing that has occurred in many cultures throughout history, only the blacks in the US retain their persecution complex. In places like brazil where many more slaves were imported the africans have integrated into society and are not constrained in any way by their ancestors who came there as slaves. the same can be said for many of the other countries in S. America as well as some of the caribbean islands.
Sir, you haven't the slightest idea of what you are talking about. Do some research on Rio de Janeiro, Salvador (both in Brazil), Buenaventura and Tumaco, Colombia, and anywhere in Haiti, the Dominican Republic or Panama and then tell me how well blacks in Latin America have "gotten over" slavery. The bitter legacy of slavery is worldwide, not just here in the US. Believe it or not, African descendants in the US are doing better than they are anywhere else in the Diaspora. That doesn't speak well of blacks, whites, or Latins of any race.
Geez, are you forced integration people ever satisfied?
Whites *left* the inner city and everyone is screaming about "white flight" and how "evil" it is.
So they go back and now everyone is screaming about "gentrification" and how "evil" that is.
Why is it that whites just *have* be surrounded by blacks at all times?
Geezus, give me a break.
Crime sucks, afro culture largely sucks, every where in the world that has a large population of blacks there is nothing but problems. Why would *anyone* actually want to integrate.
You people are crazy.
JMadison, I find myself on the same side of your argument although I consider your end comments ugly and indeed racist.
It is clear the way history has played out that integration has had marginal success in some places and greater success in others. Still all across America there are neighborhoods populated primarily by either race or ethnicity. This shows a clear preference despite all our modernization and "diversity" for many individuals who clearly choose to live among people that resemble them or share the same cultural background. There is nothing wrong with that I agree. Forced integration however was a way to obliterate the racist Separate But Equal, Jim Crow and other federal laws that kept a group of people as socio-economic underdogs (permanent underclass). Affirmative Action was also an attempt to undo the ills of this time. How would you have "leveled" the playing field after 100 years or more of holding a whole entire race of people back? Would you have supported "Back to Africa?"
I would agree that if we could have a society where everyone would "live and let live" then we might be able to end this circular conversation of racism and reverse racism we would all be better off. But that is simply just not the reality. (Read other NJ threads on cross burnings, neighborhood intimidatation, crime against whites, crime against blacks etc.)
Your thoughtful argument unwinds itself at the end when you voice your personal hate, which is where we started with all of this over 200 years ago. Therefore, while your voice might have been considered an honest thought on the problem it disintegrated into hateful rhetoric....which we have all heard before.
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Separate But Equal was an American Doctrine
