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Location: Ft. Washington/Oxon Hill border, MD (Prince George's County)
321 posts, read 814,830 times
Reputation: 233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVA1990
I encounter a lot of recent African and Caribbean immigrants here doing fairly low paid work, driving cabs and such. They don't appear to be from wealthy backgrounds. They do appear to have a very strong work ethic so I'm guessing if they stay, within a generation or two their progeny will be upper middle class professionals.
I think they will also. There isn't much excuse for any future generations of any background of color not to after the civil rights movement which happened too late for my grandparents and parents to get the full benefit of being able to go to school wherever they wanted (or to be allowed to go to school at all), buy a home or rent wherever they could afford to and do whatever career they wanted beyond things like maid, sharecropper etc. They can come here now knowing they or their children can achieve anything they want to and hopefully without the racial/ethnicity baggage.
As many articles have noted, I think the work ethic problem is perceived to be an increasing American problem in general (google Generation X and Y and baby boomer's view of them) but that topic could fill up an entire thread on its own. We can also get into a discussion comparing another model minority, Asian/Middle Eastern, and why they often within a generation or two quickly surpass the entrenched majority in this country.
On becoming an upper middle class professional, I hope that the financial crisis, recession, housing bust, mounting student loans, etc. do not make it so that the next generations will be worse off than their parents but I have a feeling that for many families it will be harder to become and stay middle class let alone upper middle class...but again that topic could fill up another thread on its own.
Location: Ft. Washington/Oxon Hill border, MD (Prince George's County)
321 posts, read 814,830 times
Reputation: 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacelilies
I came to this country with a clear, open heart but after living in this country for so long, witnessing racism and being treated as if I were a stereotype, I have changed ... quite a bit
I hope that changes for you. As I am from the midwest originally, I have to say one thing I fell in love with about this area was getting to know people from so many different backgrounds, that I found diversity was embraced more and there was less of that going on.
Oh how often I hear this comment. Let me break it down like I always do for the fallacy that it is. First, I've rarely met anyone here that was African or from the Islands that didn't come from a educated family or came here with more resources and family support than I had as a native that grew up in poverty and as the first to go past high school.
That you personally have not met such people does not make my previous statement a fallacy.
Contrary to some popular perception, most immigrants today (whatever the variety) are not highly educated professionals. The days of well-educated Central Europeans coming to this country, running grocery stores and sending their children to the Ivy League are long gone.
Most immigrants from "the Third World" are not highly educated. What they have, however, is a desire to make a better life for themselves and their families, so much so that they take the giant leap of faith and leave all the comforts of familiarity behind. To that extent, these immigrants are self-selecting. But this self-selection in sociological sense does not make their work any easier and their struggles any less difficult.
Furthermore, in contrast to those native-born African-Americans, some of who seem loath to leave the comforts of "what they already know," the second generation of these immigrants assimilate rather rapidly -- in their families, to attain high education and/or success in the mainstream American society is not viewed negatively as "going white."
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I am sure there are some examples of those who came here with $20 in their pocket and made it happen but that is not the typical situation in the DC area.
I know too many immigrants with low levels of education and no support from their families back home who came to this country with nothing and have built flourishing businesses. Of course this country is not perfect and there is no denying that there may be some residual racism. Nor is hard work rewarded exactly the same way. But, in this country, if you have the will, you can assure yourself a healthy chunk of the American dream. I've seen it happen repeatedly here and elsewhere and *I* have done it myself.
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Second, many are coming from countries where they are the homogeneous majority, not the minority. That in itself leads to a level of empowerment, strong self identity and connection to an actual land they can call home where they have relatives and a history and a strong culture, being educated in a place where you everyone is deemed capable and you don't need No Child Left Behind to make sure there is no white/black/latino achievement gap, higher self-esteem, the predominant image of success and beauty in your country are people who look just like you, less discrimination based on race since they grow up being the majority...
Nonsense. Many immigrants, whether the Hmong from SE Asia or Eritreans from Ethiopia, the Hakka in China or ethnic Koreans from Japan, were minorities whence they came and suffered severe obstacles that American blacks cannot imagine. In fact, not being able to get a fair shake where they were is often one the reasons why they migrate.
You think "driving while black" is bad? Try having to check in with the police regularly and having your fingerprints taken repeatedly like a criminal just because you belong to a minority group... even though you, your parents and your grandparents were born there. Or worse facing routine outrages (beatings, rape, theft) because of your minority ethnicity.
And yet the "self-esteem" of these folks seem not to have been too badly shaken that they couldn't work three jobs, save money enough to send back to their families and eventually own their own businesses.
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Finally, the only relevant thing about that comment would be comparing their levels of homeownership in NoVa to native black Americans and the reasoning behind how they can afford a $500-$700k home in NoVa during late 20s and early 30s age range when a native black American at that same stage finds it more affordable to stay in PG or elsewhere for a home with typically more land and sq footage that is $200-$500k. Perhaps they too got family support or perhaps it is more acceptable in the culture to stay at home as a grown professional and save all your money toward a home purchase (as I have seen many Asian colleagues do) or perhaps they do not come here with the mental baggage about living in Virginia vs. Maryland as a person with dark skin or perhaps they choose to live where there is a large number of people from their Island/Continent/Country. I don't know, but that would be the only relevant line of commentary to this topic in my view.
I don't exactly know what you are trying to say here.
I happen to have a native-born African-American neighbor who was born in the South to poor parents (whose parents in turn were sharecroppers). He is the first and only person to go to college in his family (on a wrestling scholarship) and the only one to marry a non-black. He's the kind of guy who's always working hard, reading to improve his knowledge, going to church with his family and spending time with his children. And he's an incredibly nice guy, to boot (if you couldn't tell, I have tremendous respect and regard for him). And he LOVES living in Virginia (he's politically and religiously conservative). And since he had no family support, he started small, with a small condo, then a small townhome and so on. He didn't just "quit" saying "Heck, my family's poor, I can't live in NoVA since I don't have $700K to buy a decent house!"
For somone like me, an immigrant, whose parents badly wanted me to succeed and to assimilate into the mainstream American society, it was an eye-opening education to hear about the resistance, derision and jealousy he aroused from "his own people" (his words, not mine) when "he tried to be white" (their words, not his). His words were "When I was trying to succeed, white folks or racism were not my barriers. Black folks were."
I suspect this plays some role in why many American blacks do not leave "historically black" areas (like DC and Maryland) and migrate to "happening" new spots like NoVA whatever the opportunities in the latter area.
THANK YOU. People rarely realize that even though there may be Blacks of foreign descent living in city, that does not and should not suggest that the economic reality for those Blacks are on par with African-Americans. For one, they usually come with money and can live better here than the African-Americans that are already Americans. For another, many also come through adoption and are well to do, or better of, for that reason. On top of it all, they send money back home, whereas we tend to spend our money, and have to get bent over backwards through the lending process when we need more.
Black people around the world that just happen to live here are not African-Americans, though, ironically, if you were to hear the term for the first time that is exactly the impression you would walk away with. That is why I hate the term; we are not Africans, we are Americans first, that just happened to have forefathers that were, but long removed, and the Africans that do move here, in this present day are not automatically perceived as being African-Americans as we are.
Sorry wasn't my experience nor those of my African peers. Most of our dads were cab drivers. While my dad inititially came on a student visa since he is very smart. I don't think he ever set foot in college. He's been driving a cab for the last 30+ years. My mother came on a visa and just never left resulting in her being an illegal until Reagan's amnesty.
Still my dad knew education was important and through his earnings and the intervention of the day care owner put me into private Catholic School for as long as they could. There is no family money to speak of. What is there is a strong family unit my parents divorced when I was 11 but my dad was always active in our upbringing.
Still I'll grant you that the experiences of African immigrants and native Black Americans are not 100% comparable. Different cultures, value system, experiences etc.
I happen to have a native-born African-American neighbor who was born in the South to poor parents (whose parents in turn were sharecroppers). He is the first and only person to go to college in his family (on a wrestling scholarship) and the only one to marry a non-black. He's the kind of guy who's always working hard, reading to improve his knowledge, going to church with his family and spending time with his children. And he's an incredibly nice guy, to boot (if you couldn't tell, I have tremendous respect and regard for him). And he LOVES living in Virginia (he's politically and religiously conservative). And since he had no family support, he started small, with a small condo, then a small townhome and so on. He didn't just "quit" saying "Heck, my family's poor, I can't live in NoVA since I don't have $700K to buy a decent house!"
For somone like me, an immigrant, whose parents badly wanted me to succeed and to assimilate into the mainstream American society, it was an eye-opening education to hear about the resistance, derision and jealousy he aroused from "his own people" (his words, not mine) when "he tried to be white" (their words, not his). His words were "When I was trying to succeed, white folks or racism were not my barriers. Black folks were."
I suspect this plays some role in why many American blacks do not leave "historically black" areas (like DC and Maryland) and migrate to "happening" new spots like NoVA whatever the opportunities in the latter area.
I remember when I first transitioned from the mostly white Catholic School to the public jr. high school in Alexandria how this issue became my reality. I never knew the way I talked was "white". I had black friends in the neighborhood and I had some inkling I talked different than they did but since most of them were the children of African immigrants I never really got teased about it. But when I went to Hammond it was "you think you're white!", "Why you talk funny?". Also hearing the n-word being tossed around was somewhat jarring. Then there were the disruptions and the acting out, the open disrespect towards teachers and I was tracked in the level below the honors classes. So I can only imagine what went on in the lower tracked classes.
It's sad really and I really hope this belief that doing well in school and speaking correct English is something only whites do is discarded.
As unsympathetic IndiaLimaDelta may sound in the ears of many black-born Americans, he's speaking the whole truth. I've faced nothing but scorn from my "so-called" own. Hell, I've even faced disowning from my own family members for not being "black enough" (i.e. not failing in life and become another statistic). So imagine losing most of your family connections for not being "black enough." That's the reality I face.
When I was growing up, it was mostly other blacks who got on my case for succeeding academically. Over half of my childhood was in a mostly black county nearby, so imagine dealing with this for years. And it was beyond education and economic increase where the criticisms arise. If I didn't wear the "black clothes," didn't talk the "black way," or didn't have the BET-marketed "black swag," I got the evil eye from other blacks. Even though I've since moved away from PG and DC, I still have to deal with their judgmental BS because I still have to commute to DC to work and deal with the "black community." Hell, look at most of the comments I receive when I post in the DC threads.
Not to say that other races aren't d-bags (particularly the white yuppie transplants and gentrifiers) but once you get so much crap from your own for so many years for doing things to improve your life, it takes so much out of you! Particularly, it takes patience and sympathy out of you, and any story where you hear blacks talk about facing racism, you can't help but to want to ask them "what have you done to other blacks who culturally don't reflect how you are?" If you've treated anyone, and I mean any ONE with scorn for not being black enough, you don't have the right to complain about any prejudice you receive!
Smart kids have pretty traditionally taken it in the neck from their peers without much regard to other factors. Everybody has the same story to tell. Just the details change.
As unsympathetic IndiaLimaDelta may sound in the ears of many black-born Americans, he's speaking the whole truth. I've faced nothing but scorn from my "so-called" own. Hell, I've even faced disowning from my own family members for not being "black enough" (i.e. not failing in life and become another statistic). So imagine losing most of your family connections for not being "black enough." That's the reality I face.
When I was growing up, it was mostly other blacks who got on my case for succeeding academically. Over half of my childhood was in a mostly black county nearby, so imagine dealing with this for years. And it was beyond education and economic increase where the criticisms arise. If I didn't wear the "black clothes," didn't talk the "black way," or didn't have the BET-marketed "black swag," I got the evil eye from other blacks. Even though I've since moved away from PG and DC, I still have to deal with their judgmental BS because I still have to commute to DC to work and deal with the "black community." Hell, look at most of the comments I receive when I post in the DC threads.
Not to say that other races aren't d-bags (particularly the white yuppie transplants and gentrifiers) but once you get so much crap from your own for so many years for doing things to improve your life, it takes so much out of you! Particularly, it takes patience and sympathy out of you, and any story where you hear blacks talk about facing racism, you can't help but to want to ask them "what have you done to other blacks who culturally don't reflect how you are?" If you've treated anyone, and I mean any ONE with scorn for not being black enough, you don't have the right to complain about any prejudice you receive!
I definitely agree with everything you said. Although I never had to deal with my family, I got made fun of plenty of times. Growing up my parents always emphasized education. What's odd about my situation is I didn't grow up in a bad area. I grew up in a middle class neighborhood. My mom worked for the government and my dad was a blue collar bus mechanic. I had much less than other kids but I still did well. As a result I was made fun of for being 'different'. Imagine that, being around middle class black people and it was different for kids to do well in school. I lost most of my friends growing up because of the difference in my path. To this day I still get the same vibe living in pg. People rarely care about education, safety, community and things that I was raised on. Sometimes black people can be the most difficult people to live with. I truly believe that there are some black people in this area that have a poverty state of mind where they can't see beyond their 4 walls. As a family man it is sickening. Who would want to raise a family in a place like that? I'm sure every race has their share of difficult people but all in all if you can live in a place that you can be accepted for who you are and you aren't judged by being different then I think that is a place that most will be comfortable. I'm not saying it's like that everywhere in pg but it's enough to say enough!
Smart kids have pretty traditionally taken it in the neck from their peers without much regard to other factors. Everybody has the same story to tell. Just the details change.
Wasn't my experience when I attended turnabout school. Being smart made me quite popular. Maybe things would gave changed if I stayed at private school through high school, I don't know.
I'm aware of whites calling some smart kids nerds but it seems it has more to do with sociability than being smart. What some of us are relaying is being teased simply for being bright. Unless you are black and were schooled in a majority black setting it would be hard to comprehend.
Wasn't my experience when I attended turnabout school. Being smart made me quite popular. Maybe things would gave changed if I stayed at private school through high school, I don't know.
Probably the smart kids at TJ don't get teased about it either, but that's outside the mainstream, and your experience may be also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardA
I'm aware of whites calling some smart kids nerds but it seems it has more to do with sociability than being smart. What some of us are relaying is being teased simply for being bright. Unless you are black and were schooled in a majority black setting it would be hard to comprehend.
What I'm suggesting is that this is playing into a stereotype. Smart black kids get ragged on. Well, so do smart kids who aren't black. It's not an exclusive province. It helps to keep that perspective. Maybe what you want to say is that history has driven blacks to a deeper sense of community identity and reliance than others, so a black being ragged on by a black inflicts a deeper hurt than a white being ragged on by a white. Maybe there's some sense to that. Maybe not. But the notion that blacks have an otherwise different burden to bear if they happen to be born smart from what other folks do may be something of a fuzzy construct, and the notion that blacks as a group are inherently hostile toward the appearance of smart people in their midst definitely is.
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