Ongoing Measles Outbreak in California: 51 so far linked to Disneyland (Merced: middle-class, public schools)

[ambient]

Melinda Gates has the perfect response to the anti-vaccine movement - Vox

"We take vaccines so for granted in the United States," Gates told the Huffington Post in a prerecorded interview published on Thursday. "Women in the developing world know the power of [vaccines]. They will walk 10 kilometers in the heat with their child and line up to get a vaccine, because they have seen death. [Americans have] forgotten what measles deaths look like."
-- Melinda Gates.

And she's right.

In response to the Disneyland outbreak, pediatric infectious disease specialist James Cherry told the New York Times the outbreak was "100 percent connected" to the anti-vaccine movement. "It wouldn’t have happened otherwise — it wouldn't have gone anywhere," he said.

The key is what the scientific community calls herd or community immunity. ... The awful truth of the anti-vaccine movement is that it puts the most vulnerable populations at risk: infants under 12 months of age, who can't get vaccinated and are more susceptible to infection, and the elderly, who have a higher risk of death if they contract these illnesses.

Six of the Disneyland cases were infants too young to vaccinate. When you vaccinate your kids, you're not just protecting them; you're protecting others in your community as well.

If any of these infants die or have life-long complications, we'll know who to thank for that. Not that the Jenny McCarthy-listening types of well-to-do parents will care. Their kids happen to be fine right now... so to hell with everyone else.

[suzy_q2010]

Originally Posted by Tulemutt

The segment I referred to was presented sequentially with conclusion. A "statement of facts" would need to be separated to be seen simply as such.

Regardless, it was illogical as a statement of facts as well.

Correct. And blaming this on celebrity opposition, yoga mats, and Mercedes Benz driving are red herrings that alienate rather than unite toward a better result.

Further, to correlate to political preferences is even more alienating and false. Libertarians would likely be the most identifiable political persuasion to oppose mandatory vaccination, based on it being a state mandate - not necessarily due to any scientific ignorance. Certain right-wing conservative groups are also naysayers. Liberals, as accused by the OP, are not particularly unscientifically minded folks - more likely to be scientifically open minded than conservatives, actually.

And these were my points in participating in the thread.

Except skepticism of medicine and pharma as we experience it IS very warranted. "With regard to vaccines" is a likely extension of healthy skepticism.

As for a "vast worldwide medical and pharmaceutical conspiracy concerning vaccines", no one in this thread has suggested any such thing. Certainly not me.

As I wrote before: there have always been charlatans and false prophets preaching for and against all manner of things through history. Celebrities spout off from their visible platforms on all manner of topics. And sure, some people listen to them. That doesn't make them primary, controlling causes for events. Get over it.

No, I didn't miss it. It's irrelevant.

Well shame on them, eh? But better strategy is to not attack them in the manner of ridicule. But rather to counter them with a better presentation. Including other celebrity spokespersons where available. No?

Parse my posts as you wish. Educated people are not vaccinating, and celebrity endorsement of not vaccinating is part of the dynamic.

Unfortunately, that demographic has convinced itself that it knows more than the people trying to educate them about benefits and risks and refuses to listen to the real experts.

Pediatricians versus the Dunning-Kruger effect on vaccines – Respectful Insolence

[Jo48]

[quote=suzy_q2010;38180700]Parse my posts as you wish. Educated people are not vaccinating, and celebrity endorsement of not vaccinating is part of the dynamic.

Unfortunately, that demographic has convinced itself that it knows more than the people trying to educate them about benefits and risks and refuses to listen to the real experts.

Pediatricians versus the Dunning-Kruger effect on vaccines – Respectful Insolence[/quot

Oh, Suzy, that was bad. "Educated people are not vaccinating". So by that logical conclusion, UNeducated people ARE vaccinating!!!!! Do you really want to go there?

[suzy_q2010]

[quote=Jo48;38181054]

Originally Posted by suzy_q2010

Parse my posts as you wish. Educated people are not vaccinating, and celebrity endorsement of not vaccinating is part of the dynamic.

Unfortunately, that demographic has convinced itself that it knows more than the people trying to educate them about benefits and risks and refuses to listen to the real experts.

Pediatricians versus the Dunning-Kruger effect on vaccines – Respectful Insolence[/quot

Oh, Suzy, that was bad. "Educated people are not vaccinating". So by that logical conclusion, UNeducated people ARE vaccinating!!!!! Do you really want to go there?

Yes, people with less education are not the demographic refusing vaccines. Plenty of references in my previous posts.

The parent who refuses vaccines tends to be a college educated woman over 30 with several children who lives in a high socioeconomic area.

[bigdumbgod]

[quote=suzy_q2010;38183326]

Originally Posted by Jo48

Yes, people with less education are not the demographic refusing vaccines. Plenty of references in my previous posts.

The parent who refuses vaccines tends to be a college educated woman over 30 with several children who lives in a high socioeconomic area.

Also includes the home-school crowd. They wanna play the isolationist game, so be it. Just don't come down off the mountain and contaminate the rest of us!

[DriveNotCommute]

Originally Posted by suzy_q2010

Parse my posts as you wish. Educated people are not vaccinating, and celebrity endorsement of not vaccinating is part of the dynamic.

Unfortunately, that demographic has convinced itself that it knows more than the people trying to educate them about benefits and risks and refuses to listen to the real experts.

Pediatricians versus the Dunning-Kruger effect on vaccines – Respectful Insolence

I don't know if this was really your intent but your phrasing throughout many posts suggests antagonism against the class of people you labeled as "educated people."

What exactly are these people educated in? In terms of STEM related topics I would have low expectations from a Business major or Political Science major even if they were hot shots with 6 figure salaries. Personally I find that most engineers of all stripes tend to have reasonably good logic but are as susceptible as anybody of making that universal error of building good logic on top of a bad premise or two.

Otherwise I do agree that it is deplorable that anybody could ever be in any way susceptible to celebrity influence. However my opinion, like that of several other posters, is that you have badly over-emphasized the role of celebrity influence.

What most likely made the difference here is going to be the supporting infrastructure of pseudo-science community-driven "wisdom" (and in some cases outright fabricated data) that managed to sway otherwise trusting and rational people. But where did it come from? This data, and the community that created and sustained it, clearly had to exist before celebrities hopped on the bandwagon.

The root cause of the anti-vaccination phenomenon is not going to be found among either celebrities or urban "educated" people of all stripes who were fooled into believing the bad information. It will be found in the communities and movements that predate Jenny McCarthy and provided her with fraudulent information.

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by suzy_q2010

Parse my posts as you wish. Educated people are not vaccinating, and celebrity endorsement of not vaccinating is part of the dynamic.

Unfortunately, that demographic has convinced itself that it knows more than the people trying to educate them about benefits and risks and refuses to listen to the real experts.

Pediatricians versus the Dunning-Kruger effect on vaccines – Respectful Insolence

Ok. I'll parse again. Because you just did it, again. You've now made a claim that educated people aren't vaccinating. Which is, of course, not even slightly true. Truth is: a vast majority of educated people do vaccinate.

Now, if you'd said something like, "those persons not vaccinating are most often from educated backgrounds" and then cited your reference, I wouldn't have to parse.

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by DriveNotCommute

I don't know if this was really your intent but your phrasing throughout many posts suggests antagonism against the class of people you labeled as "educated people."

What exactly are these people educated in? In terms of STEM related topics I would have low expectations from a Business major or Political Science major even if they were hot shots with 6 figure salaries. Personally I find that most engineers of all stripes tend to have reasonably good logic but are as susceptible as anybody of making that universal error of building good logic on top of a bad premise or two.

Otherwise I do agree that it is deplorable that anybody could ever be in any way susceptible to celebrity influence. However my opinion, like that of several other posters, is that you have badly over-emphasized the role of celebrity influence.

What most likely made the difference here is going to be the supporting infrastructure of pseudo-science community-driven "wisdom" (and in some cases outright fabricated data) that managed to sway otherwise trusting and rational people. But where did it come from? This data, and the community that created and sustained it, clearly had to exist before celebrities hopped on the bandwagon.

The root cause of the anti-vaccination phenomenon is not going to be found among either celebrities or urban "educated" people of all stripes who were fooled into believing the bad information. It will be found in the communities and movements that predate Jenny McCarthy and provided her with fraudulent information.

Umm, roger that.

[BayAreaHillbilly]

Originally Posted by ambient

Exactly - that's the amazing thing. These are supposed to be the intelligent, educated people with ample access to information and resources to take advantage of long-proven medical advancement that eliminates some serious diseases. Instead, they choose to live with the exposures and superstitions of people of a third-world country.

Measles outbreak changes game for Bay Area hospitals - SFGate

9 cases in bay area at the moment... will probably grow. From the article:

Scratch an anti vaccine person and you may also find someone who is hysterical about gluten, about non GMO food, about non organic food, etc, etc. It all goes hand in hand.

(And I am not discrediting any of these sentiments completely, just pointing out that when they morph from a general direction into hysteria, trouble soon ensues)

[bigdumbgod]

Originally Posted by BayAreaHillbilly

Scratch an anti vaccine person and you may also find someone who is hysterical about gluten, about non GMO food, about non organic food, etc, etc. It all goes hand in hand.

(And I am not discrediting any of these sentiments completely, just pointing out that when they morph from a general direction into hysteria, trouble soon ensues)

In other words, veering into OCD territory.