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I disagree. I see it all the time. I live in the part of the country that is usually considered most affluent and kids here are spoiled senseless. Another things is that as we know from the stats there are a lot of divorcees with kids and those tend to be either overcompensate and be overly permissive or simply single mothers who don't know how or don't have to will to control their adolescent kids.
Anytime I walk in the mall I see a kid who tell his/her mother that she is stupid. Kids are brought up to think they are equal with their parents and can say whatever they want.
Crazy
I don't see that type of behvior very often at all.
If spanking was a truly successful means of discipline for a 5 year old, there would be no reason to escalate to a belt at 10.
And I agree. The sooner you teach your kids to respect you and your spouse the better and like you said you don't have to resolve to using a belt when they 10 yo. I DO NOT advocate routine spankings or anything like that. I am talking about kids who cause trouble and need to be corrected and even then corporal punishment is the last option. I hope this is clear now.
I disagree. I see it all the time. I live in the part of the country that is usually considered most affluent and kids here are spoiled senseless. Another things is that as we know from the stats there are a lot of divorcees with kids and those tend to be either overcompensate and be overly permissive or simply single mothers who don't know how or don't have to will to control their adolescent kids.
I think that there is some merit to the idea that many divorces yield permissive parenting but not because the equate love with spoilage. But because they are often overwhelmed.'
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Anytime I walk in the mall I see a kid who tell his/her mother that she is stupid. Kids are brought up to think they are equal with their parents and can say whatever they want.
You make assumptions that I do not. My kids are my equals in terms of human value. In the household, my word goes because it is my job to raise them. But that does not mean that they are little soldiers obeying Mom without question. They are treated with the same dignity and respect that I expeec of them which is not opposed to requiring a high degree of respect in turn. Indeed, by treating them with respect, I engender real, genuine respect rather thna respectul mimicry.
Sometimes folk, and I am guessing that you fall into this category, look at kids as terrible little monsters who are just WAITING to get away with something unless you keep them in line. I have seen this happen. But I believe it to be a product of the very same punitive discipline that escalates OR a permissive / punitiive inconsistent dance that some families do in which they are permissive because they don't know what to do then when things get ugly they come down hard on the punishments. Kids are left wondering what IS really expected of them. And a punitive system is pretty likely to yield a who's gonna catch me attitude. Why would a kid strive for character and integrity under such systems?
There is no diametric opposition between a strong, loving bond and excellent, effective discipline. Withholding love is not discipline. It is mean. Being mean isn't discipline. The best discipline keeps parental emotion right the heck out of it (man do I not succeed here sometimes) so as not to distract the child from being able to reflect on what THEY have done and learn whatever lesson needs to be learned.
Seriously? Out of the thousands of American children you KNOW that not one would do something like that? Such a sweeping generalization!
Where I live I routinely hear 12yo using vocabulary worthy of NYC cab driver... Sometime it even seems like they showing off making and sure everybody hears them talk this way until of course mummy comes in a Land Rover to pick them up. Kids mouths nowadays are as filthy as their TV idols..
I think that there is some merit to the idea that many divorces yield permissive parenting but not because the equate love with spoilage. But because they are often overwhelmed.'
I agree mothers (most kids stay with their moms after divorce) are overwhelmed plus both parents have the guilt thing and compensate with permissive parenting and often fight for kids' love which results in even more permissiveness as both tried to be kids' "best friends".
Its a mess.
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Originally Posted by somebodynew
You make assumptions that I do not. My kids are my equals in terms of human value. In the household, my word goes because it is my job to raise them. But that does not mean that they are little soldiers obeying Mom without question. They are treated with the same dignity and respect that I expeec of them which is not opposed to requiring a high degree of respect in turn. Indeed, by treating them with respect, I engender real, genuine respect rather thna respectul mimicry.
I think you are over-intellectualizing it a little bit. Of course my kids have the same human value or even more than I do and of course I treat them with dignity and respect. They are however taught to listen and obey without questioning. This is what respect means. I am their father and if I tell them get off the street I don't want to spend 20 seconds explaining why. This 20 seconds may mean their life.
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Originally Posted by somebodynew
Sometimes folk, and I am guessing that you fall into this category, look at kids as terrible little monsters who are just WAITING to get away with something unless you keep them in line.
No but from looking at other people families I see a lot of different things that go wrong and don't want to repeat that experience. Kids are not monsters but psychologically inclined to question authority, rebel and try new things, not necessarily smart ones. Nowadays kids are exposed to much more than we were in our wee years.
Yes, I keep them in line but only because it is easier to work with kids before something happens than after. I would rather be safe than sorry when it comes to well-being of my kids. Remember sometimes you simply don't get a second chance.
I
I think you are over-intellectualizing it a little bit.
Or perhaps you are thinking too little. Who knows. When you say things like equal, one might be inclined to be super clear that kinds of meaning that might have in the absence of anything clear from you.
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Of course my kids have the same human value or even more than I do and of course I treat them with dignity and respect.
Is there anyone else in the world that you would say you treat with dignity and respect and still hit? I consider dignty and respect to be entirely mutually exclusive from hitting.
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They are however taught to listen and obey without questioning.
In my opinion, obedience without question is both mutually exclusive from dignity and respect and hardly the best thing to teach a child. When you teach to obey without question, you don't teach to thiknk for themselves, to solve problems. Do so because *I said* or do so because it is right and here is why. For sure you have to do so. And failure to do so will have its own consequences. If they are smart, parents realize that they don't HAVE to look for arbitrary consequences like hitting since the misbehavior almost always has its own.
I don't WANT to raise little lemmings, little obedient soldiers. Whom will then obey when I am done with them? I don't want obedience to Hitler, Jim Jones, the local gang leader. I want emotionally and mentally strong people with character, integrity, problem solving skills, enlightened self interest, compassion. Obedience can't get you those.
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This is what respect means. I am their father and if I tell them get off the street I don't want to spend 20 seconds explaining why.
That is what respect means. You are the father, you are to be obeyed without question. (Sounds more like you want to be god to me, but there it is.) What does respect for THEM look like since you claim to treat them with dignity and respect.
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Kids are not monsters but psychologically inclined to question authority, rebel and try new things, not necessarily smart ones.
Only when you only deal with them from the standpoint of authority rather than from sense. If you tell them thou shalt do as I say because I say so, then of course they are going to rebel. Then of course you are going to have to escalate the arbitrary punishments. But if the connection between their behavior and the reality of their world is clear to them, then their world and its consequences are enough to mold behavior that is safe and right.
I don't say any of this because I think you will have the foggiest idea what I am talking about since I have been around the block on this topic more than once. But in case anyone else out there is mumly reading the thread, I struggle on.
Last edited by somebodynew; 07-03-2012 at 12:22 PM..
Reason: holy autocorrect and typing fails.
I would rather be safe than sorry when it comes to well-being of my kids. Remember sometimes you simply don't get a second chance.
I missed this. I am not sure what threats you see lurking around every corner. Even if you DO hit your kids, you STILL need to supervise you toddler in the front yard. So what does hitting the kid get you? Even if you do hit your kids, you still need to hold their hands in the parking lot unless and until they demonstrate that they won't dart away. So what does the hitting get you.
And then as they grow, if you have invested in understanding, they can be HELPFUL in managing risk. For sure, a teenager is going to be stupid from time to time, and one has to hope they live through it. But I sure would rather them have a fear of ... say.. the heroine rather than the mother who may or may not catch the teenager who by then probably knows how to hide misdeed if s/he wants to.
Do you think this type of behavior is more prevalent in affluent areas?
When I'm in areas that aren't as affluent, there is far less disrespect towards adults. In those places I see far fewer kids who think they rule the roost, etc.
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