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If children are greatly traumatized, heartbroken, disillusioned, outraged, etc. when they find out the truth about Santa, then why do so many of them want to pass on the same pain to their children?
The point is that they are obviously NOT all that traumatized, etc., and they obviously thought the fun they had in believing in Santa was worth the eventual disillusionment.
Again, what parents choose to tell their children about any fictional character is their business, and it irritates me when people try to force their views on others.
Huh? Are we reading the same thread? It has overwhelmingly been the people who perpetuate the Santa Claus myth as truth that have been judging the ones that don't. "Robbing them of their childhood" has been the most common mantra.
We don't do Santa in our home and I 100% don't care if people do.
Location: Sodo Sopa at The Villas above Kenny' s House.
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If I could do it over I would perpetuate the Dutch Santa Myth. Complete with Black Peter, kicking children and kidnapping the bad ones to sell to the Italians.
I was avoiding this thread for a while; I knew it could create a firestorm. I have multiquoted a few posts to comment on:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarahsez
I've never considered Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy or any of the others to be a lie. It's more of a game than anything. My two kids that know were not upset when they found out. It was more fun. The oldest loves to help carry on the traditions. The second child used one of his devices to catch us in the act. He loved that. The third one isn't saying yet, but we noticed she was not into Elf on the Shelf this year. She didn't set a trap for the leprechaun. I suspect her best friend came to a realization this past year because she was usually the driving force behind the elf and the trap.
There have always been differences between how our families handled traditions compared to other families. For instance, we hide the eggs when the kids are in bed. Other families announce a time for the Easter egg hunt and know who is hiding the eggs.
Even knowing, we also still love to watch the Santa Tracker, see Santa or his elves feeding the reindeer,or getting the email video from Santa on whether you're on the naughty or nice list. Santa sent an email to my 14 year old this year. He was disappointed that he wasn't on the naughty list. My kids love this stuff. It's tradition. So are those stockings that magically appear stuffed with all kinds of goodies.
I like your approach. My kids did the Santa tracker thing through HS and even when they were home from college.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NT Fellowship
The 1998 poem -- "Children Learn What They Live" has a line I feel is very important here:
"If children live with honesty, they learn truthfulness."
Many people tell what they consider "little white lies," or "cheat a little," or "fudge" on their taxes or to their employers ("sick days" when one is only "sick" of work). They add to their alternative reality fables and myths of imaginary creatures that heap materialistic goodies on children--especially "if they are good." We want our children to be honest, so we tell them of Easter Bunnies, Good Fairies, Leprechauns, Santa Claus, and the like? This is landing in the Land of Oz. "Children, I want you always to be honest. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain..."
What do children learn from mixed messages like these? That truth is relative; life is what you imagine it to be; and that if you finagle your way, you can hit the jackpot...because he who dies with the most stuff wins the game.
There's a better way! Lavish love (not stuff or "magick") on your child...go bird watching...play catch in the backyard...take a hike together...don't let them waste their lives in front of the TV or computer game...read books together (start with the Bible)...work on projects together (build a bird house, teach them to repair the car/make house repairs/cook/sew/make wall hangings/etc)...help young children write letters and stories and illustrate them--sending them on to lonely grandparents and friends...learn First Aid together...sing together...pray for others...reach out as a family to help the elderly and needy...give them examples of a truly honest, upright, love-filled life.
Who needs the imaginary world when real life is so exciting?
Secondly, gag me! What's Santa have to do with cheating on taxes, taking sick days when not sick, etc? Are you implying that if you tell your kids about Santa they'll become tax cheats and employer cheats? Pretty big stretch there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwerty
What a sad house when children can't play make-believe or have fantasies or can only believe in "real" things....
Kids are little and innocent for such a short time...let them be. Do you REALLY know any adult that has to go to therapy because they found out Santa wasn't real?
Our adult children still get Santa presents...
Mine, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus
Indeed. Thankfully however I have not seen a single person on this thread suggest such a house. No one anywhere here has suggested Children should not make believe or have fantasy. You appear to have been saddened by something that has only actually succoured to you.
Who knows to be honest. I certainly don't. But we DO have people in therapy for delusions and conspiracy theories - thinking the whole world is conspiring together to perpetuate some kind of illusion or conspiracy or lie on them.
Now I would not for one moment have a basis for claiming that children who realise the whole world has been conspiring together to perpetuate the lie of Santa on them - has led to people later in life to suffer such delusions requiring therapy.
But I can say with some confidence that it certainly does not help. Because people under delusions that others can - en masse - conspire in a conspiracy and lie to you - actually have sound basis for lending credence to the possibility. Because it has likely happened to them before as a child.
We must not be on the same thread. I saw lots of accusations of lying, even someone equating belief in Santa as a child and cheating on taxes as an adult!
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053
Yeah, but Jesus was not born in December.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonBeam33
Nor was he born in the fall. The shepherds were in the fields to keep an eye on the ewe's that were due to give birth, which happens in spring.
No one really knows when Jesus was born. The Bible does not say that's why the shepherds were in the fields; shepherds stay with the sheep when they're out to pasture. Occasionally, that time can go into December in Israel.
A long time ago I read not to use Santa as a threat. I wasn't brought up that way, and I didn't do it with my kids either. They seemed to have fun with it, and they both figured it out at about age 8.
I was brought up totally without the idea of Santa Claus, and I'm glad of it. I think my parents wanted me to understand that they worked for the money to buy the presents.
-Never had to go through the shock of parents lying.
-Good to have the reminder that parents work to provide.
-Good to have the example of having to thank the parents.
-Good to feel smarter than the believing kids.
But I was also always told that I should never, never disillusioned any child who still believed.
I was brought up totally without the idea of Santa Claus, and I'm glad of it. I think my parents wanted me to understand that they worked for the money to buy the presents.
-Never had to go through the shock of parents lying.
-Good to have the reminder that parents work to provide.
-Good to have the example of having to thank the parents. -Good to feel smarter than the believing kids.
But I was also always told that I should never, never disillusioned any child who still believed.
I'm sure you understood at 3-4 years old that work and money were somehow related. My kids didn't seem to understand that till much later, but then, you were smarter.
I was brought up totally without the idea of Santa Claus, and I'm glad of it. I think my parents wanted me to understand that they worked for the money to buy the presents.
-Never had to go through the shock of parents lying.
-Good to have the reminder that parents work to provide.
-Good to have the example of having to thank the parents.
-Good to feel smarter than the believing kids.
But I was also always told that I should never, never disillusioned any child who still believed.
Saying thank you is expected. Sometimes, it was "thank you Santa!" and sometimes it was "thanks Mom and Dad". I heard no difference in sincerity.
You would have been shocked to learn Santa wasn't real? You sound like a sensitive soul. My kids handled the knowledge with aplomb, as a sign they were now old enough to be in on the secret.
There is nothing smarter about a kid who learns from the get-go, and one who figures it out on their own. Actually, I give the edge to the kid who enjoys the myth for a few years, and then connects the dots.
Saying thank you is expected. Sometimes, it was "thank you Santa!" and sometimes it was "thanks Mom and Dad". I heard no difference in sincerity.
You would have been shocked to learn Santa wasn't real? You sound like a sensitive soul. My kids handled the knowledge with aplomb, as a sign they were now old enough to be in on the secret.
There is nothing smarter about a kid who learns from the get-go, and one who figures it out on their own. Actually, I give the edge to the kid who enjoys the myth for a few years, and then connects the dots.
Its more about feeling smarter than actually being smarter. I bet the kids that figure it out before their friends feel the same way. Its the kid-favourite "I know something you don't know" feeling.
I have very fond memories of Santa as a child, and the excitement and anticipation of it all. I wanted my dd to experience that.
At the same time, I found it difficult to hand all the credit over to some made up person when I'm the one busting my butt to buy all this stuff.
I also recalled my mother telling me that as a child she believed Santa didn't like black people, because they were poor and their parents couldn't afford elaborate gifts like some of her classmates. It made me reflect on how kids can be hurt by what they believe is Santa's slight, when it really is poor struggling parents doing the best they can.
So I compromised. One gift is from Santa, the rest from mom and family. And I tell her that Santa doesn't work for free, that parents have to send him a check for their child's gifts and express delivery.
I've never considered it "lying" though. It's make believe. When my dd had a make believe friend, or when she comes to me with something one of her stuffed animals said (which she still does) I can't imagine responding with "That's a lie!" Santa, the tooth fairy, and Easter bunny fall under the same category as talking stuffed animals and imaginary friends. Childhood fun. As simple as that. I outgrew it myself with no trauma or sense of betrayal.
Do not let them find out. Children need something to help them retain their innocence and naivety.
Which is perfectly attainable without things like Santa claus or other lies. "innocence and naivety" have their time and place and useful forms. I see nothing on this thread that anyone has suggested that would harm that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timemachineman
Childhood is supposed to be a time that's happy, and filled with "magic".
There is enough happiness and "magic" in reality without having to add to it though. You say that one should prolong the length of time until they learn the world is not a magical fun place? I am 36 and have not "learned" that either. Because it is not true. And I have required no mythical characters or lies to realise that either.
Perhaps the opposite is true. You hang all their belief in the "magic" of reality on the hook of lies you know they will be later divested of. So what are they left with later in life when that happens? Teach them instead about the value and magic and wonder of actual reality - and how to derive happiness and intrigue and wonder in that - then you set them up for life.
For me magic and myth are not ways to put magic into childrens life - but a crutch to avoid the effort of doing so. If adult life for YOU is "sad boring and often hellish" then you do have my sympathy. But it is not a useful point to extrapolate child rearing tips from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Caldwell
Children should be shown that it is fine to believe in things that aren't real. Do you tell them stories of the little folk, that dance in the air with the fireflies at night? Do you tell them bedtime stories of Cinderella or Jack and the Beanstalk? Childhood fantasy should not be limited to Christmas presents, it should be a gift itself, every day of their life.
It should. But the subtle point that a lot of people on the thread miss is that children do not have to believe these things true in order to derive wonder and joy and imagination from them. Make believe is just that - and at no point during it are you required to believe it to engage with it.
I of course read all those things you listed to them and more. And they are as engaged with those stories and as wide eyed and excited by them as you would require. But at no point have they ever remotely indicated they actually believe them - or are required to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquietpath
Why try to strip every bit of fun and magic from a kid's life, just so you can be "honest".
The two are not even remotely mutually exclusive - that's the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallsAngel
We must not be on the same thread. I saw lots of accusations of lying, even someone equating belief in Santa as a child and cheating on taxes as an adult!
But the user I replied to said "What a sad house when children can't play make-believe or have fantasies or can only believe in "real" things...." which has nothing to do with the things you are saying you read in the thread.
It is worth repeating: Not perpetuating myths or lies is NOT THE SAME thing - at all - even a little bit - as "a house where children cant play make believe or have fantasies".
So whatever thread you are reading - it must be different to the one I am reading - because not one person on this thread has suggested such a thing.
Once again: Children are highly capable of feats of imagination and make believe and fantasy that leave adults looking emotionally dead in comparison. They are great at it. But _actually beleiving_ any of it is not a requirement of them doing it. They are perfectly cogent of the difference between fantasy and reality - while still being better at the former than most adults.
Another reason not to do the myths - my OH today told my four year old that the Easter bunny visited while she was at daycare, to bring a basket and seeds for her to grow grass in for Easter. She got scared, thinking there was an actual bunny in our house and didn't want to do the grass basket or anything. I explained to her again that its just a game and now she's much happier about the whole thing.
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It has overwhelmingly been the people who perpetuate the Santa Claus myth as truth that have been judging the ones that don't. "Robbing them of their childhood" has been the most common mantra.
