Does spanking children really teach anything to our children in a positive perspective? (school, engaged)
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See I think that if *I* take that responsibility, why would she ever? I see this with my nephew who presents an extreme case. The kid is a junior in high school. My sister complains that he "won't take responsibility" for his gym bag. She has to nag him to unload the dirty clothes into the laundry room. And then when he doesn't, she does. Why would he "take responsibility" for it when she already does? I would bet he would start taking responsibility if he found himself at school one day with stinky gym clothes. He won't take responsibility for making his lunch. I bet he would if he found himself at school one day with nothing to eat...
When she is out of the house is too late for her to learn that actions have consequences IMO.
Actually, I think we agree more than disagree. Your example of your nephew's gym clothes and lunch makes perfect sense, and I would do exactly the same as you in that situation--don't see to it that your gym clothes are washed, well, you'll be the one stinking and getting laughed at tomorrow. In that case, natural consequences work perfectly.
In other situations, they may not. Suppose you find out your kid is bullying another child. What are the natural consequences of that? Bullies really don't have very many, and it's the other child that is suffering. There is a situation that I would feel the need to CREATE a consequence. If you pick on and harass other people, this is what's going to happen to YOU. I couldn't sit back and wait for a kid to have to change schools, or worse, harm themselves, because my kid is tormenting them so.
Or, if your kid is say, doing something that is potentially criminal, like underage drinking. Do you wait for the natural consequence of that, arrest, criminal record, DUI, etc? Or do you provide a consequence of your own (grounding, taking things away...by this age I would hope spanking is out the question) that will teach the kid a lesson so that it will never come to any more serious consequences? If I did that, and she continued her bad behavior and THEN got into trouble with the law, I would feel as though I tried, she didn't listen, so it's all on her. But if I didn't do anything, and allowed her to suffer the worst possible consequence FIRST, it would seem like a failure to parent on my part. I want her to learn to be responsible for her own actions, but I want to be the one to teach her that. I don't want her to have to learn the hard way.
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If you are inferring that I think that people spank because they are mean, nasty awful parents, then no I don't think that. I think apathy is the more likely response of uncaring parents. I think there are uncaring parents. And I think that uncaring parents are more likley to use tactics that I think aren't great like yelling, belittling, spanking. But that does not mean that I think that the converse, that spanking parents don't care, is true. Not be a mile.
Glad to hear that. I do believe most spankers, at least the ones I've seen here, aren't the ones to pick up a shoe or a curtain rod and beat the crap out their kids just because it's the easiest thing to do. I believe they do it because that's the method that works for that child, and it's NOT an easy thing to do, nor a pleasant one. I don't spank my own, but only because I don't need to. She's way too sensitive for physical discipline. If I had a different kind of child and that was the only thing that worked, I would. I do think it's important for parents NOT to do something just because they were raised that way, but to figure out what the best method is for THAT particular child. Not to say that you're one of them, but it does get frustrating to get accused of child abuse for trying to do what is best for your child, which is why you see so much defensiveness on this subject.
Spanking has its place, but only when it is used for the most serious, life threatening or educational experiences.
If a parent spanks a child more than a handful of times in their lives then they are losing the benefit of doing it at all and need to just stop because they are not acting in their child's best interests.
I agree with this. The kids I knew growing up who were spanked excessively, for every minor infraction, were sneaky monsters. All they learned was how not to get caught. I remember thinking if I were them, I would be scared to death to do anything wrong, but they didn't seem to care. One friend told me that her mom would stop spanking the sooner she cried, so she would scream like she was being killed, then as soon as the mom left the room she would be laughing and high fiving her siblings. Spanking loses it's effect when it's done ALL the time over every little thing. If a kid only gets a few spankings in their life, you can believe they will never forget it and will never repeat that behavior again.
1. If you were spanked as a kid, do you believe that it was effective?
2. As a parent now, do you spank or not?
Apparently non-spankers keep trying to lecture people on why spanking is horrible. I think it works, but that is my opinion. Lets discuss. Enjoy.
P.S. Lets make sure we stay on topic, I know there will be people who will start posting 10,000 studies on why spanking is worse than murder and this thread will eventually get hijacked.
Okay, my mother was super "old school" when it came to spanking, and in this case I would not call it "spanking" we got "beat down" lol which thats really not funny but it helps me avoid the tears. For me, it was effective because it made me think twice before I wanted to stay out to play after the lights went out. For my brother and other siblings(5) I would say no it is not effective because they still bring it up to this day and they are in their 30's, a few of them have major issues because of it though(not criminally but mentally). But the way that my mom did it was why, she would pick up anything that was next to her and hit us with it, shoes, belts, hangers, cutting boards, it was crazy. But I was the youngest so my siblings still say that I did not get it as bad as they did, they could be right, but the way I got beat was bad enough. Overall, I think there are other ways to discipline a child besides spanking because even though it worked for me at that time, a good "talking to" and grounding would have been better.
2. I am not a parent yet, and I frankly do not know how I would handle discipline when I do have children, will I take my mom's route and take a hanger and hit them until I run out of hangers OR will I take my husband's mother approach and talk to them about what they did.
I agree with this. The kids I knew growing up who were spanked excessively, for every minor infraction, were sneaky monsters. All they learned was how not to get caught. I remember thinking if I were them, I would be scared to death to do anything wrong, but they didn't seem to care. One friend told me that her mom would stop spanking the sooner she cried, so she would scream like she was being killed, then as soon as the mom left the room she would be laughing and high fiving her siblings. Spanking loses it's effect when it's done ALL the time over every little thing. If a kid only gets a few spankings in their life, you can believe they will never forget it and will never repeat that behavior again.
Exactly!!
If a kid is spanked as a routine form of "discipline" it soon loses it's desired effect.
Real discipline requires a very SELF-disciplined parent
I don't understand the language equivocation that is often seen in this discussion. It isn't hitting it's spanking. It isn't spanking, it's swatting. What is the real difference?
To me spanking is one slap across the buttocks with an open hand.
Hitting would be when the blow lands somewhere other than the buttocks, which I think can easily turn to abuse.
Swatting is what I do to my dog when she needs to stop doing something. It implies a casual blow meant to startle more than anything actually hurt.
But the way that my mom did it was why, she would pick up anything that was next to her and hit us with it, shoes, belts, hangers, cutting boards, it was crazy. But I was the youngest so my siblings still say that I did not get it as bad as they did, they could be right, but the way I got beat was bad enough.
That's definitely abuse, not spanking.
It's going to be something you have to watch out for when you have kids, remember your mom's loss of control and don't let that happen to you. Every time my kids make me angry, I think about how it was when I was a kid, how I never knew what was going to happen to me or even why, sometimes. I don't want my kids to live like that. We keep it pretty simple...tick mom off, no tv for a week. Tell mom you're bored, get a cleaning task to do right then.
In other situations, they may not. Suppose you find out your kid is bullying another child. What are the natural consequences of that? Bullies really don't have very many, and it's the other child that is suffering. There is a situation that I would feel the need to CREATE a consequence.
This is actually a neat example because it speaks to why I don't equate punishment (consequences if you like) and discipline.
If you are attending to self esteem in the area of being, if you role play conflict resolution skills in preschool, if when they are toddlers and preschoolers they understand that in order to be in the presence of others, you have to treat others nicely or you can't play, etcetera and so forth, you aren't that likely to end up with a bully.
That said a person does not have the right to be nasty to someone else. If they were, they cannot be in the presence of that person. Ever. Containment is needed. If that means they need to be supervised at detention during recess or if it means that they sit by themselves in the classroom or do not leave the house then so be it. WHEN they can behave like a human being THEN they can resume the priveledges of a human being.
The difference between that and say grounding them may seem small. But in the former case, the child is responsible for behaving in order to regain the freedom vs waiting out an arbitrary grounding period after which he may choose to resume bullying.
It's going to be something you have to watch out for when you have kids, remember your mom's loss of control and don't let that happen to you. Every time my kids make me angry, I think about how it was when I was a kid, how I never knew what was going to happen to me or even why, sometimes. I don't want my kids to live like that. We keep it pretty simple...tick mom off, no tv for a week. Tell mom you're bored, get a cleaning task to do right then.
Yes that is what I am so nervous about. But I think the way you have disciplined your children is great, that is disciplining in a positive way. Many parents/people confuse that with spanking or worst, abuse. You don't have to knock your kids out to show that they are wrong.
You might get a better picture of what the books say by reading the books rather than reading what people say about the books. Maybe.
Done.
I honestly don't come on this board to have someone regurgitate the speaking points of a book they read or refer me to a reading list of books in place of having an actual discussion. I don't care what the authors of the books think, I care what you think. It's fine to state that you believe "x" and read a certain book that helped you develop that position, but to stand pat behind a link and accuse others of not understanding because they haven't read the same book is frankly poor form.
I'm not going to go out and buy three books on your version of parenting just so we can have a discussion over the finer points of the book. I read as much material as I felt I needed to in order to get a feel for the concept as presented and frankly it isn't anything more than a spin on just about any other parenting book out there in regards to using positive and progressive discipline.
It is obvious that you have no counter for the points I was making. Once we remove the veil of PC terminology we find that we are simply talking about discipline and it suddenly doesn't feel as warm and fuzzy to you to think that you are actually disciplining your child and not engaging in "teaching moments" and "positive behavior support".
discipline is to teaching moments is to positive behavior support
what
crippled is to differently abled is to physically challenged
They all mean the same thing even if you think the word at the front of that string is icky.
So, hears my question to you...
Most parents have the expectation that their child will clean up after themselves; example putting their toys away properly before bedtime. What happens to YOUR child if they fail to do that?
I honestly don't come on this board to have someone regurgitate the speaking points of a book they read or refer me to a reading list of books in place of having an actual discussion. I don't care what the authors of the books think, I care what you think.
It does not seem that you do since you tell me I am saying something other than what I am saying. I know what I mean, and I am saying what I mean.
Cheers.
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