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1) The proposal won't "increase and improve our public transportation" beyond having five-car trains on the Ridge Spur on event days and maybe some more frequent Regional Rail and MFL service around events. One of the reasons I liked this proposal, as I explained above, is because the site chosen sits atop the best rail transit infrastructure in the region. However: Moving it to the Disney Hole site across Market and two blocks east offers the same connectivity (switching the longer walk to the site from the Broad-Ridge Spur to Regional Rail). I suspect this proposal is where it is as much to shore up a floundering downtown shopping mall makeover as anything else, maybe more so.
2) Increased security patrols can be implemented just as easily at the SWC 8th and Market as at the NEC 11th and Market, and you also get a parking lot turned into something more useful in the process. I realize that this might require acquiring 833 Chestnut (the one surviving fragment of the Gimbels department store that once took up just about all of this square block), but I'd say that the acquisition would be more worth it.
3) Xfinity Live! (a Cordish Companies project) is more the exception to the rule than the rule. Most of the research I've read on spinoff effects of sports arenas concludes that the patrons don't spend much money in neighboring businesses pre- or post-game; instead, the concessions inside the arena capture most of the money fans spend on food and drink related to the arena event.
Cordish specializes in building entertainment facilities of this type, some of which (like KC Live! in my hometown of Kansas City) are located near arenas (in its case, the Sprint^WT-Mobile Center, which has no major league sports team playing in it; when I was researching this article on the Power & Light District, where the Cordish complex is located, for Next City in 2015, I read an article about the arena that quoted someone saying that "Garth Brooks is our anchor tenant"), and some (e.g., Fourth Street Live! in Louisville) are not. But it appears that the Cordish entertainment centers generate their own traffic and revenue related to what may be going on in the arena rather than snare money from arena-goers; they allow those who don't have tickets to the arena event to experience it vicariously. Most businesses around arenas can't do that.
Also: Most of Chinatown's residents live in Chinatown proper, not Chinatown North (above Vine Street). The block group that contains all of Chinatown proper (Arch to Vine and 9th to 11th streets, plus 11th to Marvine streets between Race and Vine) had 2,213 residents in 2020, while the block group to its northeast (Vine Expressway to Green Street, 6th to 10th) had 851 residents and the one to its northwest (Vine Expressway to Broad, 10th to Hamilton) had 1,563. The Chinatown part of both block groups runs from 9th to 11th, Vine to Buttonwood, which is only part of each block group, so I'm pretty sure that the sum of the two portions is less than 2,213. Chinatown is one of the city's most densely populated neighborhoods. (49,443.54 ppsm). The overwhelming majority of those retail storefronts on Chinatown's main streets and interstitial alleys have residences over them.
If, as Tom Lee (I think correctly) pointed out to me, the majority of 76 Place patrons continue to drive there the way they do to events at the Wells Fargo Center despite the superior transit connections, Chinatown's streets won't be able to handle the extra traffic. Now, I would hope that Lee is wrong and people do use transit more to get to the arena because of those connections. Those who still drive would nonetheless place a strain on local streets and parking. It would be marginally better for a Disney Hole site simply because the street to its north is wider (Market) and the one to its south has less congestion most of the time (Chestnut), plus you'd be closer to 5th and 6th streets, both of which are better equipped to handle larger traffic volumes.
Good grief your comments are long and complicated - you're exhausting brother. Would it kill you to simply address the topic without quoting numerous people and referencing obscure texts from who knows when? Just kidding, just kidding - it had to be said though.
1. Of course that would improve our public transit. We would have a multi-billion-dollar company with skin in the game. There would be private security and police everywhere. It would, without a DOUBT, improve the general area, especially public transit, transit stations, etc...
2. Increased security can be implemented easily, yeah? Ok, well, let's do that then. Sounds like a "pie in the sky" comment. Also, did I miss the announcement where the Disney Hole was offered up? I didn't see that news. If you can site that for me, I'd love to read about that offer.
3. I don't really know or care about Cordish and your three paras about that company (that really has nothing to do with this topic). However, as a life-long Philadelphian, I will tell you, Cordish or no, people will come eat, drink and socialize before and after sports games.
The block across the street from the proposed 76 Place is empty and ready to be demolished for possibly the best Live! venue in existence. Maybe throw 3 levels of parking below street level and boom. Done.
30-40 levels of residences over that and you've completed the most dramatic transformation of a resilient stretch of blight. The blocks to the east would fill in immediately to capture the critical mass created.
Just sayin...
This was along the lines of what I was suggesting. MSE does make valid points about how complicated it could actually be.
Good grief your comments are long and complicated - you're exhausting brother. Would it kill you to simply address the topic without quoting numerous people and referencing obscure texts from who knows when? Just kidding, just kidding - it had to be said though.
1. Of course that would improve our public transit. We would have a multi-billion-dollar company with skin in the game. There would be private security and police everywhere. It would, without a DOUBT, improve the general area, especially public transit, transit stations, etc...
2. Increased security can be implemented easily, yeah? Ok, well, let's do that then. Sounds like a "pie in the sky" comment. Also, did I miss the announcement where the Disney Hole was offered up? I didn't see that news. If you can site that for me, I'd love to read about that offer.
3. I don't really know or care about Cordish and your three paras about that company (that really has nothing to do with this topic). However, as a life-long Philadelphian, I will tell you, Cordish or no, people will come eat, drink and socialize before and after sports games.
Brevity and focus my friend, it's not a bad...
For the record, he's a writer! And I love reading his posts, I nearly always learn something.
MarketSt, It's a CVS and then SEVEN empty store fronts including some large store spaces like the Robinson building and Marshall's. It's an empty block for retail.
But that's only the north third of that block. My original post went south down 11th, as site acquisition would have to as well. The number of empty storefronts is lower on the unit block of South 11th, and the building to the immediate south of the CVS/forjmer Marshalls has its upper floors occupied as well.
The Parking Authority garage on 10th would also need to be acquired, and I do believe many of the buildings in the 1000 block of Chestnut would as well.
Several of those storefronts are also empty, but again, there are occupied upper floors.
Not saying it can't be done, just saying it's not as simple as you painted it out to be. Acquiring the Disney hole should be much easier.
Good grief your comments are long and complicated - you're exhausting brother. Would it kill you to simply address the topic without quoting numerous people and referencing obscure texts from who knows when? Just kidding, just kidding - it had to be said though.
1. Of course that would improve our public transit. We would have a multi-billion-dollar company with skin in the game. There would be private security and police everywhere. It would, without a DOUBT, improve the general area, especially public transit, transit stations, etc...
2. Increased security can be implemented easily, yeah? Ok, well, let's do that then. Sounds like a "pie in the sky" comment. Also, did I miss the announcement where the Disney Hole was offered up? I didn't see that news. If you can site that for me, I'd love to read about that offer.
3. I don't really know or care about Cordish and your three paras about that company (that really has nothing to do with this topic). However, as a life-long Philadelphian, I will tell you, Cordish or no, people will come eat, drink and socialize before and after sports games.
Brevity and focus my friend, it's not a bad...
I'd have applied for an opening at Axios if that were my shtick. Then you'd be complaining that I insisted on focusing on "1 big thing."
I guess when you said "improve our public transit" I thought infrastructure, not safety and security. I think you do have a point that it would probably draw improved security. So would an arena at 8th and Market, southwest corner.
No, no one has offered up the Disney hole. I'm tossing it out there as a possibility that would offer all the advantages of an arena atop the Fashion District's west end with less impact on Chinatown. And since it's a parking lot, wouldn't this be a higher and better use? The only problem with it is that it wouldn't shore up a madeover shopping mall that's still struggling to find an audience.
Are you sure? We haven't had an arena or stadium in the middle of a developed area since the Phillies left Connie Mack Stadium for the Vet. Since I don't attend games all that often, I have no idea whether patronage at Xfinity Live! spikes before a game then tails off once it starts or not. I'm betting that it remains fairly steady both before and during the game, which would indicate it generates its own traffic related to the arena rather than feeds off pre-game paronage.
Jeff Brown wasn't asked generally about the trash deal, it was specifically about the racial component of it. In that context, "it has to go somewhere" is just complete disingenuous at best, as though it was just bad luck that we burn trash in Chester and not Bryn Athyn. There may be very legitimate reasons to keep the current arrangement, IDK, but "who cares? Its just Chester" is not one of them.
Brown wasn't asked specifically about the racial component of Chester and its largest in the country trash incinerator/disposal plant.
The question was ''where Philly sends some its trash''? Why is Chester the focus of where Philly sends its trash as opposed to the other locations where it's sent?
Chester leadership doesn't mind have the largest trash disposal plant in the country there. Otherwise, why aren't they being pressured into closing it and being accused of ''environmental racism?" It's is Chester's problem, if they have an issue with it of course as opposed to the ''progressives'' in Philly
Philly sends its trash to various area locations but Brown was asked about Chester's which receives the most Philly trash...because it's largest in the country.
Brown didn't say ''it's just Chester''.
Philly can ship it somewhere else and pay the $$ for it. Enough with the ''environmental racism'' and where Philly sends its garbage.
I'd have applied for an opening at Axios if that were my shtick. Then you'd be complaining that I insisted on focusing on "1 big thing."
I guess when you said "improve our public transit" I thought infrastructure, not safety and security. I think you do have a point that it would probably draw improved security. So would an arena at 8th and Market, southwest corner.
No, no one has offered up the Disney hole. I'm tossing it out there as a possibility that would offer all the advantages of an arena atop the Fashion District's west end with less impact on Chinatown. And since it's a parking lot, wouldn't this be a higher and better use? The only problem with it is that it wouldn't shore up a madeover shopping mall that's still struggling to find an audience.
Are you sure? We haven't had an arena or stadium in the middle of a developed area since the Phillies left Connie Mack Stadium for the Vet. Since I don't attend games all that often, I have no idea whether patronage at Xfinity Live! spikes before a game then tails off once it starts or not. I'm betting that it remains fairly steady both before and during the game, which would indicate it generates its own traffic related to the arena rather than feeds off pre-game paronage.
Put any new arena, which the city doesn't need or can support, on the Disney hole. Or, put it at 22/Market and build a new MFL station there and cantilever over the Septa/Regional Rail line with a station there as well.
All this transit access will do is keep more people off the streets, that is if they even use transit to get a new arena in center city. South Philly not having a shortage of fans and only has the BSL, with a walk to and from the station.
Chester and its garbage plant is allegedly something called ''environmental racism''; why is the Asian community so ''disposable''? Imagine if an arena was going into the middle of a thriving black community? It took Philly 10+ years to get friggin' Washington Avenue repaved/redone over accusations of ''racism'' and ''white supremacy'' game playing lol.
Philly ain't big enough for 2 arenas competing with each other. 41 regular season Sixers home games. lol That's 324 fill-in dates left.
The "Philly can't support 2 arenas" line needs to finally put to rest. Miami and Minneapolis has two and both are smaller metros. Detroit had 2 for decades. There are probably more, these are just off the top of my head. Class Negadelphiaism.
Put any new arena, which the city doesn't need or can support, on the Disney hole. Or, put it at 22/Market and build a new MFL station there and cantilever over the Septa/Regional Rail line with a station there as well.
All this transit access will do is keep more people off the streets, that is if they even use transit to get a new arena in center city. South Philly not having a shortage of fans and only has the BSL, with a walk to and from the station.
Chester and its garbage plant is allegedly something called ''environmental racism''; why is the Asian community so ''disposable''? Imagine if an arena was going into the middle of a thriving black community? It took Philly 10+ years to get friggin' Washington Avenue repaved/redone over accusations of ''racism'' and ''white supremacy'' game playing lol.
Philly ain't big enough for 2 arenas competing with each other. 41 regular season Sixers home games. lol That's 324 fill-in dates left.
Um, we had the Wells Fargo Center and the Spectrum both for a while.
I come from a city that has a downtown arena with only a minor-league hockey team as its principal sports tenant — and a second arena in the former stockyards district. Both seem to attract enough business to remain viable. (Oh, and I forgot: my hometown actually has a third arena, about half the size of the first two, that's been around since 1935.)
And my hometown's core city has one-third the population of the city of Philadelphia. Its metropolitan area is likewise one-third Philadelphia's size.
Sorry, that last paragraph of yours is flat-out wrong.
As for transit: It's not so much the people as the cars that we need to keep off the streets. The South Philly arenas have a sea of parking lots around them and wide streets connecting them to nearby freeways. None of those things apply in Center City, so to minimize the gridlock, transit access becomes more important. That, and spreading both the inflow and outflow of patrons at either end of the event over a longer timespan. I'm pretty sure Pennsport is expecting this last to happen as well — it would mean business for the bars and restaurants in the area, the business the research I've read suggests isn't as great as arena backers say it is.
Lordy, how did I miss Philly as a city that had 2 large arenas? I am now wondering what concerts and other events skip Philly because WFC is booked? Its not apples to apples but there are probably a good number of concerts that would rather be in CC than at the Freedom Mortgage Pavilion (yes, I had to look up what its being called these days). Maybe there are some other minor leagues out there too that can use the arena. The Phantoms are out of the question but there are other options, maybe WNBA if they don't want to go to a smaller place.
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