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In like kind, I also don't have sympathy for people who buy homes in the flight path of Sky Harbor airport and then complain that the noise is too much. It's obvious that it WILL happen.
If you are referring to my neighbors to the south (FQ Story, etc.), it's not the same. They are a fair distance from the airport, there are downtown highrises between them and the airport and that area had never been in the flight path in the 86+ years that the airport was there. There was no way to predict that the FAA would unilaterally change the flight path, without public input, from industrial areas to residential ones in order to save the airlines money on fuel. Pretty sure that they will end up changing it back though.
If you are referring to my neighbors to the south (FQ Story, etc.), it's not the same. They are a fair distance from the airport, there are downtown highrises between them and the airport and that area had never been in the flight path in the 86+ years that the airport was there. There was no way to predict that the FAA would unilaterally change the flight path, without public input, from industrial areas to residential ones in order to save the airlines money on fuel. Pretty sure that they will end up changing it back though.
True. The flight paths have changed substantially, after having been the same forever. When I see the planes that have taken off turn north around 7th Ave, as opposed to previously going MUCH farther west before turning, which also means they are flying lower as they turn, I see what the people are upset about. The flight paths on the east side seem to have changed somewhat, too, but not like the ones heading west out of the airport.
This airport issue is VERY different from the freeway issue, for the reasons pbenjamin states.
I think it's interesting how many of the people who are for the freeway say that the people of Ahwatukee should have 'done their research' when purchasing their home. The opposition to the freeway is not about lack of research or losing a house. I wish ADOT would buy my home if the freeway does go through. We are not in the path of the freeway. But we appreciate the beauty of where we live and a lot of us HAVE done our research and are very well aware that ADOTs own study proves that the freeway will not provide the relief that everyone is counting on.
I could say the same about the people on the west side who purchased their homes knowing there was (at the time) no funding, no approval and a great opposition to a freeway that didn't exist when they bought their property. Now they've been complaining for years about the commute. There are other options to relieve the traffic congestion in the valley, ones with an actual chance of making a difference, that don't include destroying a beautiful park, community and way of life.
Another thought would be, really how much sense does it make to live on one side of the valley and work on the other. I have lived in Ahwatukee for 15 years, my husband and I have both changed jobs twice since moving here and we have always worked within 20 minutes of our home. Want to solve the traffic problem. Work where you live!! Live where you work!! There are plenty of housing options of all kinds and costs all over the valley.
Really the fact is, people have a right to fight for what they love. The people of Ahwatukee have a great love of their home and community. (Something some people are envious of, I believe.) It is our right to try to preserve what matters to us, even if it inconveniences those who think it is more important for them to get to work faster. It doesn't matter what a map said 20-30 years ago, that was a 'projected' plan. Those change all the time. The law states it is actually illegal for ADOT to determine a final route until all environmental issues have be addressed AND alternatives have been considered.
I find it disturbing how totally unconcerned some people are with how many things have been done illegally by ADOT and still they managed to get federal approval. Now THAT is scary. So much for government looking out for the people. But I guess for some people that's fine, as long as it gets them to work faster.
I think it's interesting how many of the people who are for the freeway say that the people of Ahwatukee should have 'done their research' when purchasing their home. The opposition to the freeway is not about lack of research or losing a house. I wish ADOT would buy my home if the freeway does go through. We are not in the path of the freeway. But we appreciate the beauty of where we live and a lot of us HAVE done our research and are very well aware that ADOTs own study proves that the freeway will not provide the relief that everyone is counting on.
I could say the same about the people on the west side who purchased their homes knowing there was (at the time) no funding, no approval and a great opposition to a freeway that didn't exist when they bought their property. Now they've been complaining for years about the commute. There are other options to relieve the traffic congestion in the valley, ones with an actual chance of making a difference, that don't include destroying a beautiful park, community and way of life.
Another thought would be, really how much sense does it make to live on one side of the valley and work on the other. I have lived in Ahwatukee for 15 years, my husband and I have both changed jobs twice since moving here and we have always worked within 20 minutes of our home. Want to solve the traffic problem. Work where you live!! Live where you work!! There are plenty of housing options of all kinds and costs all over the valley.
Really the fact is, people have a right to fight for what they love. The people of Ahwatukee have a great love of their home and community. (Something some people are envious of, I believe.) It is our right to try to preserve what matters to us, even if it inconveniences those who think it is more important for them to get to work faster. It doesn't matter what a map said 20-30 years ago, that was a 'projected' plan. Those change all the time. The law states it is actually illegal for ADOT to determine a final route until all environmental issues have be addressed AND alternatives have been considered.
I find it disturbing how totally unconcerned some people are with how many things have been done illegally by ADOT and still they managed to get federal approval. Now THAT is scary. So much for government looking out for the people. But I guess for some people that's fine, as long as it gets them to work faster.
I am wondering when all those opposed to the freeway became traffic engineers? It just seems to me that the people who are against the freeway are honestly trying to find any and every reason to be opposed to it, even if it is a huge reach. The fact is that this freeway will relieve some traffic on the I-10 through downtown. There is no debate about that. Ahwatukee residents can't label the 202 South Mountain as a "truck bypass" and then turn around a claim that this will not relieve traffic like everyone is counting on. Taking some traffic off of one freeway and putting it on another will lessen the volume of traffic and help with overall traffic flow. This isn't solely about helping Ahwatukee residents or others who work far from where they live get to work faster, it is about regional mobility and will benefit those who are traveling long distance as well.
Those opposed to the freeway are also overstating the level of opposition to this freeway. Maricopa County voters approved funding for a regional freeway system, including this freeway. Twice. I understand that some of the people who are being displaced and those who live adjacent to the freeway are largely opposed to this happening. However, it is impossible to sympathize when this freeway has been in the planning stages since 1985 and very few, if any, of the homes that are set to be demolished even existed back then. It is hard to fathom why anyone would move into a community, especially for aesthetic reasons, knowing that a freeway is eventually coming through. ADOT is not responsible for purchasing your home because you believe this freeway is going to ruin your view. You've lived in Ahwatukee for 15 years. This freeway has been planned for 30 years. You live in a large, growing city. You should live with the reasonable anticipation that nothing in the built environment around you will stay the same forever. With the exception of hot summers and sunny weather, I would think anyone who has spent any appreciable time here knows that nothing here stays the same.
Your community's "way of life" is not more special than any other community's way of the life that may have altered when a freeway came through. It is odd to me how some in Ahwatukee want to point to a freeway, which will take up a couple hundred feet of right of way, destroying the natural beauty of the area, when there are homes and apartments, strip malls, huge asphalt parking lots, and roads covering what used to be virgin desert. I don't think another eight lane road is going to be the tipping point.
ADOT has considered all alternatives and it did address all environmental concerns in the Final Environmental Impact Statement. A preferred alternative was identified and ultimately selected. The Feds signed off of the Record of Decision, which gave ADOT permission to move forward. I wonder what illegal maneuvers you believe ADOT has been engaging in. Or is this another, "when all else fails, blame the government" argument?
There are other options to relieve the traffic congestion in the valley, ones with an actual chance of making a difference, that don't include destroying a beautiful park, community and way of life.
Since you are now a traffic engineer please let us know what you're professional opinion is on these options.
Also, you state 'destroying a beautiful park'. You're obviously talking about South Mountain Park. You do realize the alignment is clipping a very small section at the west end and not blasting down the middle of National Trail right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ahwatukeemom
The law states it is actually illegal for ADOT to determine a final route until all environmental issues have be addressed AND alternatives have been considered.
I find it disturbing how totally unconcerned some people are with how many things have been done illegally by ADOT and still they managed to get federal approval. Now THAT is scary. So much for government looking out for the people. But I guess for some people that's fine, as long as it gets them to work faster.
Since you're claiming illegal activity by ADOT pleas cite your sources
There are people like myself who oppose the freeway no matter whose neighborhood it is in. I actually don't have a lot of sympathy for people who bought homes near the path of this freeway and suddenly realize that it is going to happen. It shouldn't happen, in my opinion, but it has been obvious for a long time that it WILL happen. I don't feel all that bad about folks who build their homes near a river and then cry when they get flooded out either.
As a fellow central Phoenix resident I'm puzzled why you would be against it?
I'm assuming the sprawl problem and I agree we have more than enough sprawl and really should be focusing on our city proper. This freeway will help those South Phoenix, Downtown, and Midtown residents with the smog problem. But re routing pass through traffic (if you've lived in other areas of AZ like Tucson you know hat Phoenkx is an impediment to most enjoyable road trips). I'm all in favor of this. And I'm glad it borders the Gila River community, less land to build more blah crap.
As a fellow central Phoenix resident I'm puzzled why you would be against it?
I'm assuming the sprawl problem and I agree we have more than enough sprawl and really should be focusing on our city proper. This freeway will help those South Phoenix, Downtown, and Midtown residents with the smog problem. But re routing pass through traffic (if you've lived in other areas of AZ like Tucson you know hat Phoenkx is an impediment to most enjoyable road trips). I'm all in favor of this. And I'm glad it borders the Gila River community, less land to build more blah crap.
I believe that the beneficial bypass aspect of the new highway could be done more cheaply farther from town. I also believe that the road will enable people to live even farther out of town, enabling more sprawl.
I believe that the beneficial bypass aspect of the new highway could be done more cheaply farther from town.
Where? I8-Gila Bend-85? That route is many miles longer than the current route and therefore there would be no incentive for the long distance traffic to use it. Further, that route does nothing for the local commuters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbenjamin
I also believe that the road will enable people to live even farther out of town, enabling more sprawl.
Well first of all, sprawl is good. Can you imagine if the million plus people in the east valley cities hadn't been able to sprawl out that way?? They'd be bottled up inside Phoenix... Talk about congestion!!
But as for the SMF, where would the sprawl be? There won't be much along this corridor in the way of land zoned for construction. It's almost all reservation and state park.. This does nothing to help sprawl...
You can 'believe' these things all you want.... just like unicorns, global warming, and aliens... doesn't make it true...
Where? I8-Gila Bend-85? That route is many miles longer than the current route and therefore there would be no incentive for the long distance traffic to use it. Further, that route does nothing for the local commuters.
Well first of all, sprawl is good. Can you imagine if the million plus people in the east valley cities hadn't been able to sprawl out that way?? They'd be bottled up inside Phoenix... Talk about congestion!!
But as for the SMF, where would the sprawl be? There won't be much along this corridor in the way of land zoned for construction. It's almost all reservation and state park.. This does nothing to help sprawl...
You can 'believe' these things all you want.... just like unicorns, global warming, and aliens... doesn't make it true...
(well, aliens might be true)
Sprawl promotes smog, habitat destruction and is very vulnerable to energy and cost spikes. Phoenix has enough sprawl, it's time to form a proper urban core and end promoting destroying more desert for more stucco stick boxes and strip malls. It can take over an hour to get out of town!
A lot of people does mean a llot of congestion but it also means more tax base to improve infrastructure to support it. We live in one of the most sprawled out major cities in the U.S. Not a distinction that makes us remarkable.
Where? I8-Gila Bend-85? That route is many miles longer than the current route and therefore there would be no incentive for the long distance traffic to use it. Further, that route does nothing for the local commuters.
Well first of all, sprawl is good. Can you imagine if the million plus people in the east valley cities hadn't been able to sprawl out that way?? They'd be bottled up inside Phoenix... Talk about congestion!!
But as for the SMF, where would the sprawl be? There won't be much along this corridor in the way of land zoned for construction. It's almost all reservation and state park.. This does nothing to help sprawl...
You can 'believe' these things all you want.... just like unicorns, global warming, and aliens... doesn't make it true...
(well, aliens might be true)
You seem to be the only person I have encountered that holds that opinion that truckers would not use an I8/Gila Bend bypass. You have repeated it three times here though.
As to your idea that sprawl is good, well, I guess it takes all kinds.
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