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You are totally wrong! Drug use and mental illness are the two main and overwhelming reasons for homelessness. Minimum wage and housing bubbles have minimum impact on this issue. Homelessness is very visible because of places like San Francisco and Seattle where, due to the policies enacted, are welcomed with open arms and attract these type of people from all over.
Exactly, and this is what I've been saying about San Francisco. I'll definitely agree that the cost of living there is out of control, but that's not the main reason why it has a huge problem with derelicts on the streets. It dates back to the '60s with the hippie movement, and the reputation the city developed of being a magnet for outcasts has lived on. The fact that San Francisco is a sanctuary city only adds to the problem.
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Originally Posted by jdahunt
The heart of capitalism isn't to pay labor as little as they can get away with....not sure where you've worked but clearly people are probably paying you for what you are worth.
Capitalism has brought more people out of poverty than any other system in history....is it perfect, nope but it is the best that we have.......it allows you to earn as much as you are willing to learn, work hard and invest in yourself.....more importantly if you don't like your job you can always go someplace else.
I've never let someone else make decisions about my future....I taught my sons to make their own way....to depend on others is to be disappointed.
The one sure thing about socialism is that only a very few elite ever get to be at the top and they live well while the other 95% are all the same at the bottom living miserable lives with no hope to move up......you can't say that about capitalism......look at what we've seen in the last two years....all income levels seeing increasing wages.....that doesn't just happen by accident.
This sums it up perfectly. Capitalism is what America is all about, and those who balk against it should look for another country to live where the government is in control of everything ... then we'll see how well they really like it. With that said, I'm afraid America has moved more toward a socialist type of system, especially since we allow the government to control things that should be run by free enterprise (education and health care being two prime examples).
Your last paragraph is especially true involving government jobs: the highest paying positions are at the very top, and most everybody else is stuck in the same position with little hope of moving up. Many will claim that corporations are famous for that too, but the difference is that government workers get their salaries through tax money, whereas wages in the free enterprise system are paid for with private dollars. Also, government employees are pretty much guaranteed a job for life ... even if they hate their jobs, they stay because of the benefits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer
Rich people engage in the same behavior but because they have money it’s ok for them to let loose and have a good time smoke weed do coke. They do it in gated communities and that’s ok.
Not all rich people worked particularly hard for their money eithrt. I will agree hard core injection drugs are never good but outside of that who are we to judge.
Same can be said about those who are poverty level & don't work hard (or don't work at all). They spend a lot of their time doing drugs, drinking, popping out babies, and have no ambition to improve themselves, so they have no guilt in taking from the government because they think they're "entitled" to it.
Ah here it comes... the old Bernie/Warren rich people got their money through immoral means and the money must be returned to the proletariat. Yeah none of them actually worked hard, they are all coke sniffing slumlords raising rents on their poor hard working tenants.
Ah I never advocated for redistribution only to leave homeless people alone. I think creating bull ****e laws and trying to round up homeless into camps on bogus laws that are unconstitutional to create in the first place IS the issue.
I also never said that all rich people did something immoral, just that not all of them worked particularly hard for it (right place, right time, family money and on and on). But the homeless are demonized for smoking weed and drinking but rich people do it all the time in their gated communities.
And yes some of them are coke sniffing slum lords.
Exactly, and this is what I've been saying about San Francisco. I'll definitely agree that the cost of living there is out of control, but that's not the main reason why it has a huge problem with derelicts on the streets. It dates back to the '60s with the hippie movement, and the reputation the city developed of being a magnet for outcasts has lived on. The fact that San Francisco is a sanctuary city only adds to the problem.
This sums it up perfectly. Capitalism is what America is all about, and those who balk against it should look for another country to live where the government is in control of everything ... then we'll see how well they really like it. With that said, I'm afraid America has moved more toward a socialist type of system, especially since we allow the government to control things that should be run by free enterprise (education and health care being two prime examples).
Your last paragraph is especially true involving government jobs: the highest paying positions are at the very top, and most everybody else is stuck in the same position with little hope of moving up. Many will claim that corporations are famous for that too, but the difference is that government workers get their salaries through tax money, whereas wages in the free enterprise system are paid for with private dollars. Also, government employees are pretty much guaranteed a job for life ... even if they hate their jobs, they stay because of the benefits.
Same can be said about those who are poverty level & don't work hard (or don't work at all). They spend a lot of their time doing drugs, drinking, popping out babies, and have no ambition to improve themselves, so they have no guilt in taking from the government because they think they're "entitled" to it.
I think people get way less from the govt than you think they do. When your broke, sex (hopefully they are married), weed and Jesus are about the only things that keep people from going on a shooting spree or having some sort of other mental break that ends really badly.
Lack of ambition kind of sucks but I think people that are that far in the hole just dont even know where to start. Its not like you just show up at los alamos and say hey I want to learn to build nukes where can I get a access badge ...
I think people get way less from the govt than you think they do. When your broke, sex (hopefully they are married), weed and Jesus are about the only things that keep people from going on a shooting spree or having some sort of other mental break that ends really badly.
Lack of ambition kind of sucks but I think people that are that far in the hole just dont even know where to start. Its not like you just show up at los alamos and say hey I want to learn to build nukes where can I get a access badge ...
I think you have enough words in your mouth, but that first paragraph is just a weird concept.
I sort of agree on the second paragraph, but at the end of the day, we must be all feel responsible for our own destiny, and take action every day towards some goal. Thinking about that goal is not the sole ability of the rich and famous and Harvard educated. Anyone can do it, you just gotta stop making excuses. That being said, everyone can use use a mentor and guidance, and not everyone has that advantage, I agree with you wholeheartedly there.
I think people get way less from the govt than you think they do. When your broke, sex (hopefully they are married), weed and Jesus are about the only things that keep people from going on a shooting spree or having some sort of other mental break that ends really badly.
Lack of ambition kind of sucks but I think people that are that far in the hole just dont even know where to start. Its not like you just show up at los alamos and say hey I want to learn to build nukes where can I get a access badge ...
To your first point, lots of people take from the government more than they give back, including public schools, tax credits, heath care, SSI, etc. This includes many middle class families as well. As far as being broke, I can tell you that I came from a household that wasn't exactly poor, but we were definitely on the lower end of middle class at best. My parents managed to pay for our education out of their own pockets, and they didn't use a dime of government money for anything. We simply did without a lot of extras.
People that got themselves buried in the hole too deep really have themselves to blame. Everybody has the opportunity to work hard, save as much as possible, and be financially independent (and successful for that matter). Many companies participate in charitable drives for people in need. On that same note, if you work for a sizeable company, you can obtain some pretty good benefits ... among them: health insurance, pension, 401K, and even tuition assistance for college courses. You don't have to be a high paid executive or or management level to get these benefits. Any employee can qualify.
To your first point, lots of people take from the government more than they give back, including public schools, tax credits, heath care, SSI, etc. This includes many middle class families as well. As far as being broke, I can tell you that I came from a household that wasn't exactly poor, but we were definitely on the lower end of middle class at best. My parents managed to pay for our education out of their own pockets, and they didn't use a dime of government money for anything. We simply did without a lot of extras.
People that got themselves buried in the hole too deep really have themselves to blame. Everybody has the opportunity to work hard, save as much as possible, and be financially independent (and successful for that matter). Many companies participate in charitable drives for people in need. On that same note, if you work for a sizeable company, you can obtain some pretty good benefits ... among them: health insurance, pension, 401K, and even tuition assistance for college courses. You don't have to be a high paid executive or or management level to get these benefits. Any employee can qualify.
Sure. Take a look at the DOL site and see what people in the USA are making, this is the real crux of the issue.
My old company had all those same drives, they also had a culture of fear and constant lay offs.
But I do agree all that is left is FI, however, you have to manage to land at least one good job to start padding accounts. You are not going ot pad a FI account making $20/hr in any sort of reasonable time frame ... and guess what ... drum roll please ... 60% of americans are making $20/hr or less so the level of difficulting of getting one of those good jobs that gives you enough excess income to pad said account is getting smaller and smaller every year.
So my original arguments still stand, we are very slowly creating a cast system. Yes, technically everyone has the freedom to do what they want but the market is being used as an economic warfare weapon against most people, most people are being pretty much priced out of everything.
So I really cant blame people when they turn to political means to get themselves solvent as opportunity is evaporating and costs of everything is sky rocketing.
If Trump does not so something about the gap between COL and wages I dont think republicans will have another chance.
No one has been able to convince me that 60% of americans are lazy schleps or drug addicts, that percentage is just way to high. And IF 60% of americans are lazy drug addicts then we deserve to be a 3rd world country and all of our infrastructure to go down the toilet. Its hard to know if thats the case because the rich have manipulated the economy and markets and weaponized it against the people via the proliferation of low wage mcjobs (anything at or under $20/hr). We also have WAY to many customer facing jobs in our markets now as well which is a huge problem considering half our population is introvereted.
401k cant be accessed without penalty until your really old (so its not a lay off hedge) and tuition assistance is not valuable unless you are given the TIME to actually use it, with online classes thats getting better but if your to drive to the local uni when said class is offered is the company going to let you just disappear for 2-3 hours? I have used tutition assistance and I have had the time to do just this but its RARE. And there is usually a cap and the program of study has to be approved, if you work buying and selling cattle they are not likely to let you start take classes in chemical engineering or pre med.
So then what? You expect Trump to write everyone a UBI check every month? Will that make you happy?
Will that make the 60% doing McJobs happy? The situation is ALOT more complicated than Trump could ever manage to address, in even 8 years.
God forbid the DNC takes over and does attempt to solve the COL-wage gap with a blunt force welfare transfer. The only way out is increasing the value add of the person doing the McJob, to increase productivity via increased training and skills. So let's talk about opening more post high school vocational programs, more junior colleges, all with tuition assistance, and more... but will anyone attend them? Or will they sit on their PS4 and smartphone they can't afford playing games and pose for Insta's all day. Studying sucks as much as work does.
So then what? You expect Trump to write everyone a UBI check every month? Will that make you happy?
Will that make the 60% doing McJobs happy? The situation is ALOT more complicated than Trump could ever manage to address, in even 8 years.
God forbid the DNC takes over and does attempt to solve the COL-wage gap with a blunt force welfare transfer. The only way out is increasing the value add of the person doing the McJob, to increase productivity via increased training and skills. So let's talk about opening more post high school vocational programs, more junior colleges, all with tuition assistance, and more... but will anyone attend them? Or will they sit on their PS4 and smartphone they can't afford playing games and pose for Insta's all day. Studying sucks as much as work does.
THis is a false narrative. I am both an engineer (duel disapline) and a mechanic (aviation). Despite all the hollaring about shortage of skilled blue collar jobs air craft mechanics still make $25/hr, for highly skilled labor this is a very curiuos situation (one that is causing the only mechanics to exist to be ones that do it for a hobby or to work on their own planes) they are not liley to do it for you for $25/hr. You have to have decades of experience to start making ok money. I dont consider 25/hr good money, I consider 20 and below povery in almost all of america ( I dont allow the fed govt to define poverty for me), I know what kind of a life style certian wage ranges can buy and 20/hr is NOT good lol. 25/hr is not much better.
I have heard this is the same with welding, skilled fabricaiton, etc.
The problem is the markets themselves, the owners of capital are seeking to get labor (even skilled labor) at absolute bottom dollar. Do you really think young people would rather sit on a PS4 if these skilled trades were making 60-80/hr ... no way. 25/hr for what an A&P goes through is nothing to write home about.
Engineers have a habit of exiting the field or changing disciplines if they are not getting at least 6 figures and so it creates a nightmare for companies which is a good thing. But we most certainly feel the downward pressure on wages even though every product under the sun is going up in price.
However, I do think its worth it to get these skills and then use them as a hedge. You have to be able to get the skills without going into debt or having to work multiple mcjobs though. Once you have said skills you need to ply the trade with friends and family. If an employment opprotunity presents itself dont take peanuts, just politely decline and keep playing PS4 while you post work samples on your linkedin account doing cool work and a bill rate. If your not making at least 40/hr in a skilled trade then its not really worth doing.
Skilled trades also carry liability, if you mess something up and someone gets hurt its a bad deal, that comes with a cost premium of even more.
So yes, the young people that are not building any skills is a mistake, but becuase this is not really tracked its impossible to know if they are just playing PS4 and nothing else or if they are gaining skills but just wont work for YOU for peanuts?
I dont think study or work sucks. I think getting up when I dont want to get up and/or dealing/associating with people I dont want to assocaite with for the sake of a paycheck sucks.
Well you may be an engineer, but if so, I'd recommend to learn how to spell "dual discipline". Makes me wonder.
I am an engineer by education and career, and one wants to signal precision and care for detail, right?
I can imagine you are right about most of what you said re hourly pay for what should be higher paying skilled jobs.
But something does not make sense to me, then. If these jobs truly require experience, training and skill, then by definition they are going to pay near what a white collar job would pay? If not, then that suggests there is ample supply at $25 an hour, which does not make sense either, because that means those skills are not hard to obtain, most anyone can do it somewhat quickly. But that does not make sense either. I suspect you are referring to those skilled employees who just got out of school, and can't easily jump to another job, so they are kind of stuck for slave wages.
If engineers exit jobs, and companies need those engineers, the companies will absolutely raise salaries. The market will clear supply vs demand.
Well you may be an engineer, but if so, I'd recommend to learn how to spell "dual discipline". Makes me wonder.
I am an engineer by education and career, and one wants to signal precision and care for detail, right?
I can imagine you are right about most of what you said re hourly pay for what should be higher paying skilled jobs.
But something does not make sense to me, then. If these jobs truly require experience, training and skill, then by definition they are going to pay near what a white collar job would pay? If not, then that suggests there is ample supply at $25 an hour, which does not make sense either, because that means those skills are not hard to obtain, most anyone can do it somewhat quickly. But that does not make sense either. I suspect you are referring to those skilled employees who just got out of school, and can't easily jump to another job, so they are kind of stuck for slave wages.
If engineers exit jobs, and companies need those engineers, the companies will absolutely raise salaries. The market will clear supply vs demand.
Complex topic.
I have gramerly and I don’t always correct spelling and some things I mis-spell is on purpose as I don’t like all the rules of English, I like using commas more than periods and use of amphersand for non proper nouns because I like it. I don’t know how I feel about Oxford comma yet.
What happens in my neck of the woods is the positions just stay vacant and clients get pissed. Few are going to school for it, mostly just air craft owners who don’t want to pay the 120/hr shop rate and wait forever due to lack of mechanics. If I did not do my own work I would have to grovel to get stuff done and it would cost a fortune. But only WELL established 30-40 year mech who own air field hangars that got them long ago before prices exploded since the state never built new strips.
This is just one example
Welding is the same deal, if I go to metal super markets I get a quote for 500-600 for a simple job but they are offering 25/hr, so my dad taught me to stick weld and I taught myself to tig so between us we own 2 welder types. So the people that own the shops are working really hard to keep pay low even if it’s pissing clients off because time frames are way out there.
It’s driving a massive diy and maker space culture and with YouTube everyone’s garage can become a shop which is what we are all doing. One friend fixes cars I fix planes and and building a weld cnc capabilities. I will still buy raw materials from local places but that’s it.
I have to save like crazy and finish these projects because I could end up back teaching again if professional work dries up and I want to ability to help with these things so friends don’t get fleeced. We are going back to a sort of barter / market system. Real estate is the real crux here because you have legacy land holders who have a choke hold on the economy, they are literally choosing to choke out the economy, it’s almost like the greed has gotten so out of hand that it’s denigrated into mental illness.
So then it’s not really confusing that the play ps4 and live at home or in a trailer court. I don’t respect the ones who JUST play ps4, gain skills and experience even if it’s just for your own interest. They can’t easily change jobs but they can work super part time and live at home and play ps4 ... then spend the rest of their time tinkering and maybe building a portfolio of self directed diverse projects.
At least where I am it’s not complex, a handful of families have all the commercial land tied up and the price points are out of reach for a start up or small business. You have to go way out away from the market to get ok deals but it’s still steep.
Last edited by pittsflyer; 01-02-2020 at 02:40 AM..
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