Pittsburgh Area Development - Request for Info & Updates (York: leases, drywall)

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by SteelCityRising

That rendering is fantastic! Ideally MOST of that development will be hundreds of new condominiums (not apartments). Millennials are a massive demographic, but we are aging. More and more of us are seeking to transition from renting to owning as we enter our 40's. Gen Z is MUCH smaller than the Millennials, so I think we will eventually hit a market saturation point where this constant stream of new RENTAL development will lead to a glut. Meanwhile mid-range condos (not the dumpy dated ones like at Chatham Center or near 5th & Neville or the luxury ones like you have otherwise Downtown and in the East End) are scarce in this city. Hundreds of new condos at Bakery Square 3.0 could really be a game-changer.

The problem with condo buildings is they require a certain percentage of pre-sales in order to get financing to begin construction. As a result a lot of the announced condo projects have languished unless they cater to the extreme high end of the market - people who own multiple residences and don't have to worry about their new "home" taking another 2+ years to be completed.

Originally Posted by SteelCityRising

Cities reinvent themselves. Always have. Always will. Downtown is a mess now but will bounce back. More conversion of office space to residential needs to occur Downtown. Get several thousand more people living Downtown, and it is able to function despite the "non-essentials" still working from home in various neighborhoods outside Downtown.

I think it's important to keep things in perspective. Every downtown is going through the same issues that Downtown Pittsburgh is right now.

Originally Posted by SteelCityRising

I believe in the next decade we will have a very vibrant corridor of development extending from Downtown northeastward all the way through Lawrenceville---all of the "gap teeth" in the urban fabric between the eastern reaches of the Strip District and Lower Lawrenceville will be filled in.

Essentially everything along the riverfront from Downtown to past the 31st Street Bridge is already snapped up by a developer, with many of the yet unimproved areas having concrete plans. It's going to take longer for it to fully lap up onto Penn and especially Liberty, though.

Originally Posted by SteelCityRising

I also expect some sort of major development to finally come to fruition in Polish Hill on the Herron Avenue "S"-curve site, adjacent to the Herron Avenue BRT station.

Whatever happened with the plans to have a new subdivision there a few years back?

Originally Posted by SteelCityRising

I just hope the love extends further into the North Side. Eschaton encouraged me with a recent reply about all of the development occurring here, but it is almost uniformly in the "Lower" North Side (flat gentrified/gentrifying areas closer to Downtown). Perry South/Perry Hilltop, Perry North/Observatory Hill, Marshall-Shadeland, and California-Kirkbride all continue to languish (albeit the latter has benefitted somewhat from the new affordable housing project near the Columbus Avenue Bridge).

I wouldn't expect substantial development in those areas to begin until the flat part of the North Side is fully built out. It's much the same as how Larimer is only now seeing substantive development pressures, as East Liberty is approaching 100% built out.

Originally Posted by svband76

Maybe Gentries just don't like doing Pittsburgh hills. Some of my fav places are Spring Hill, Troy Hill, Brookline (ooh, the tunnels!) ... I'm surprised they're still pretty authentic Pittsburgh old time little communities still. I'll take that.

There are absolutely big expensive houses being built even in places like Allentown to take advantage of killer views. That said, not every parcel in a hilltop neighborhood is appropriate for this.

I do think, in general, hilltop neighborhoods have a few strikes against them:

1. Generally subpar transit access (usually just access to a local bus route heading into Downtown - most of the hot areas have direct bus access to Oakland as well)

2. Not really bikeable (a niche concern, but important for some people).

3. Most have smaller (or even nonexistent) business districts.

4. Lack of many suitable places for developers to put substantial new multifamily through a combination of low demand, steep terrain, and restrictive zoning.

[gg]

Originally Posted by svband76

Maybe Gentries just don't like doing Pittsburgh hills.

I think it really is that simple. I watched the Mexican War Streets completely change during the time I flipped a home on Perry Hilltop. Mine had an amazing view, so those always sell easily, but Observatory Hill and all around there just didn't move forward at all. Allegheny West was always okay, but now it is great. People just don't want to go up Federal or the like. I wish that area up on that hill would do better.

[eschaton]

A revised, more detailed presentation involving the "Bloomfield Square" development (at the site of the old Shur Save) has dropped. I had seen overall site plans before, but this presentation has the first crude renderings.

To provide a refresher, the development will include 248 apartment units (25 affordable), a 28,000-square-foot grocery store (now confirmed to be a new Giant Eagle), and 10,000 square feet of additional retail space. It will also include a 318-unit garage, which seems overkill to me, based on the area.

The design seems fine to me, though I wish there was a colored rendering. I am concerned about how many ZBA variances they are asking for here, as this is the kind of project that a few NIMBYs within a block or two could hold up easily, even though the community group is broadly in support of it.

[gg]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I think it's important to keep things in perspective. Every downtown is going through the same issues that Downtown Pittsburgh is right now.

This I think is pretty true. I watched downtown Pittsburgh go from a peacock status to a complete slum in about 4 1/2 years. That was the most amazingly fast transition I have ever witnessed. All really due to a small group of driven white people that wanted to do exactly what they set out to do. Bring downtowns to their knees. They won.

When I was watching Pittsburgh close down and change itself over the 70's, 80's and 90's everything was a very slow process. It took a long time for Liberty Avenue go from a wild street with peep shows and hookers everywhere to a closed up mess, to a more busy okay area to downtown being pretty darn nice, but of course never busy like back in the 70's. The peacock stage, to now a very depressing place to be. From peacock to depressing was WAY faster than the earlier stages. Amazing and sad at the same time. Interestingly some places benefited very much from downtown being a slum. The East End is going crazy. Lawrenceville went high end. The Strip is way different and building more and more. The South Side turned into a bad area where now people complain about shootings instead of the occasional college bunch throwing up on a corner because they drank too much. Shame what happened to the South Side. I see Carson Street Saloon is closing up temporarily because of the violence. 3 shootings on Saturday alone.

My point is there are places shifting and where the money goes will be the nice areas. Where the crime increases, will turn into slums. Slums can change back however. The South Side isn't done yet, but man it is not safe down there anymore. Glad I experienced it when it was fun and no violence other than the occasional little fight. No guns.

[anthony_c55]

Originally Posted by gg

This I think is pretty true. I watched downtown Pittsburgh go from a peacock status to a complete slum in about 4 1/2 years. That was the most amazingly fast transition I have ever witnessed. All really due to a small group of driven white people that wanted to do exactly what they set out to do. Bring downtowns to their knees. They won.

Why does everything have to be some weird political thing with you? As noted, most every downtown has been hit with the biggest change in a long time. Large work populations are much smaller in many places as WFH has spread. Vacancy causes issues and that, we are seeing.

I was at the Benedum two weeks ago and there were tons of people... Pirates fans, theater goers etc.

I'm not saying it's a great situation overall. It's not, but it will take time for things to adjust/adapt.

[gg]

Originally Posted by anthony_c55

Why does everything have to be some weird political thing with you? As noted, most every downtown has been hit with the biggest change in a long time. Large work populations are much smaller in many places as WFH has spread. Vacancy causes issues and that, we are seeing.

I was at the Benedum two weeks ago and there were tons of people... Pirates fans, theater goers etc.

I'm not saying it's a great situation overall. It's not, but it will take time for things to adjust/adapt.

I didn’t mention politics. The timeline is clear. Put me on ignore if you don’t like facts.

I grew up here. Pittsburgh is a shell of itself. Do you remember Pittsburgh in the 70’s? Maybe you should realize I have real history here. The newcomers don’t.

[anthony_c55]

Originally Posted by gg

I didn’t mention politics. The timeline is clear. Put me on ignore if you don’t like facts.

I grew up here. Pittsburgh is a shell of itself. Do you remember Pittsburgh in the 70’s? Maybe you should realize I have real history here. The newcomers don’t.

I didn't say that you said the word "politics."

I replied to the content and context of the word that you used.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by anthony_c55

I didn't say that you said the word "politics."

I replied to the content and context of the word that you used.

I mean, the implication I got from this is he was blaming the lockdowns for the conditions of downtowns, which isn't really the case at all. The period of government-enforced lockdowns was pretty short. The issue is a social norm of WFH has been established, and in a tight labor market, employers cannot attempt to enforce a return to the office.

[gg]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I mean, the implication I got from this is he was blaming the lockdowns for the conditions of downtowns, which isn't really the case at all. The period of government-enforced lockdowns was pretty short. The issue is a social norm of WFH has been established, and in a tight labor market, employers cannot attempt to enforce a return to the office.

I am not going to discuss politics here. I will say this however. I have been in this area since the 60's. I remember the 70's and early 80's well. In 1970 Pittsburgh had a population of about 520K. 80-423K, 90-370K and so-on. Our area did lock down more than any other area. There are cities growing and growing. My history here plays a part in my views. I am not new to Pittsburgh. We are doing nothing to add growth to our city. It looks like growth when you look at places like Lawrenceville and East Liberty, but as a whole we are losing population still. Finally leveling out around 300K. I have been watching the decline for a very long time. So when I state my views they are due to a long term outlook, not just a decade or two. Now if you talk to a real old time resident, they will have been around when Pittsburgh had over 670K! Heck downtown was packed with people even in the 80's let alone the 50's.

We should be embracing more change. We are just following other cities style, but for us, it isn't working. We don't have enough to offer to be a follower. Our style should be quite different. A safe city. I cleaner city. Less poop on sidewalks and less homeless issues. They shouldn't be welcome to camp here. Sorry.

There are no political discussions here. We can focus on our leaders. Our current mayor. What is he doing? I don't see any marketing or really anything going on. Pittsburgh voted him in. Why? Peduto at least knew enough to see we need younger people and cycling to be a draw. Friends of the riverfront is a great organization as well, but some trails are overrun with homeless now! That wasn't for them! Again, I have been here a VERY long time and can't believe how many cyclists there are in our city now. Common. In the 80's? NO and we had a lot of people living here in comparison. Hats off to Peduto for at least that. Gainey? Um....

We need to progress, not just follow this silly trend.

[Reggiezz]

I've been watching a bunch of YouTube videos walking through various cities around the world. Human scale is what we need. The skyscrapers are obsolete and good riddance. Bring it all back to human scale.