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Anyone wonder why the country is so divided?? Why we can't have actual debate. Look at the vitrol and heinousness in the posts from the vast majority of right wingers in this thread. Its absolutely sickening.
We have the OP who comes here, makes a well thought out post, shows they are interested in having a common sense, intelligent debate/ discussion on the issues, and most of the posters on here who on likely on the OP's side as far as the issues go, turn this into a non-stop hate spew.
Seriously, where the hell are all the common sense conservatives issues in having an honest debate?? Is the OP and maybe one other the only ones?? Why aren't you speaking out against some of the heinousness spewed throughout the vast majority of this thread. Its absolutely sickening that we have more conservatives in this thread lambasting the OP for not thinking Obama is some Dr Evil then we have conservatives sticking up for their fellow conservative who seems to be interested in having a common sense discussion
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Originally Posted by Smash255
Yes, and why did I make the comments I made?? Because of people who were spewing HATE. Making suggestions Obama is anti-American or other such nonsense. My comments came as a result of post after post after post of people spewing hate, so I was questioning why people feel the need to spew hate instead of actually have some type of honest discussion on the issues, which it seems like is what the OP was looking for.
you talk about conservatives spewing hate, but what were you saying when bush was in office? how about reagan? have you said anything good about any republican? it goes both ways. i dont hate obama, in fact i dont even know obama. who knows if i ever met him i might be quite willing to sit down with him and have a beer and a conversation with him. i might even play a little basketball with him as well.
however i do not like his policies as i feel they are bad for america, and if he were in front of me now i would tell him so, and i would lay out my case for why they are bad policies. in fact i would have supported the stimulus package if the spending had really been targeted at rebuilding the infrastructure and not for what ever dream liberal spending program they had in mind. i would have, and still would, support a proper health care reform law that really did lower costs, and make it easier for those of us with preexisting conditions to get affordable health insurance, and i would have, and still do, supported reinstating the glass-stegal act rather than this financial reform law that was passed. more regulation and more taxes and more spending are not going to improve the economy.
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Originally Posted by Smash255
Ok few points.
First off, as far as how high the unemployment would go. Those comments were generally made prior to the extreme extent of the downturn being known. Everyone knew we were in for a big downturn and things would get quite bad, however until the GDP reports of the 4th quarter 08, the earnings reports of 4th quarter 08, the 2.2 million jobs lost during Bush's last three months in office were released, the extent of how bad wasn't known.
bull sierra. the comments were made out of hand based on a rosy picture of the economy and that the stimulus package would work like obama wanted it to.
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Secondly, when we have these types of downturns its takes a long time to recover. Its not going to happen overnight. Hell, look at the GOP's hero Reagan, we were another full year into his Presidency than we are into Obama's when things started turning around. Next, we have shown little signs of double digit inflation coming along. Inflation has been generally the one thing that has not been an issue during the recession.
yes it is true that we have these downturns, and it does take time to recover, however, recovery from recession usually takes 18 months when the government does nothing. it has been 18 months, and we are looking at a second downturn for the economy because the government got involved. and the reason inflation has not been an issue is because interest rates are near zero right now, but that will have to change in the future, and we as staring down the barrel of hyperinflation because of obamas policies.
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As far as tax increases, we are talking about a very small segment of the population that will see any type of increase. On top of that the increases will not be on the entire income, only on the portions over $250,000. Also the 28% bracket will be extended slightly upward. Those who are at the levels just over the $250,000 will see no increases or very little. Also increasing taxes for the wealthy hasn't hurt (1993).
yes it is true that tax increases on the wealthy are not going to hurt them much, but it will hurt the middle class. remember it is the wealthy in this country that create the jobs. and it isnt just the tax increases coming down the pike, it is also all the new regulations that will cost businesses large sums of money that they cannot afford for health care among other things. as for the tax increases during the clinton years, remember that the dotcom bubble covered any slow down in the economy due to tax increases, as did the liquidation of assets from the savings and loan buy outs during the reagan administration.
you talk about conservatives spewing hate, but what were you saying when bush was in office? how about reagan? have you said anything good about any republican? it goes both ways. i dont hate obama, in fact i dont even know obama. who knows if i ever met him i might be quite willing to sit down with him and have a beer and a conversation with him. i might even play a little basketball with him as well.
however i do not like his policies as i feel they are bad for america, and if he were in front of me now i would tell him so, and i would lay out my case for why they are bad policies. in fact i would have supported the stimulus package if the spending had really been targeted at rebuilding the infrastructure and not for what ever dream liberal spending program they had in mind. i would have, and still would, support a proper health care reform law that really did lower costs, and make it easier for those of us with preexisting conditions to get affordable health insurance, and i would have, and still do, supported reinstating the glass-stegal act rather than this financial reform law that was passed. more regulation and more taxes and more spending are not going to improve the economy.
I was very critical of Bush, and certainly wasn't a fan of Reagan (though I am 28, so obviously wasn't following politics at that time, but I did Major in History). With that being said even in my harshest criticism of them I never went down the road of questioning their Patriotism, suggest they were anti-American or trying to destroy the country, and that is all over this thread and this entire board in regards to the attacks from the right.
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Originally Posted by rbohm
bull sierra. the comments were made out of hand based on a rosy picture of the economy and that the stimulus package would work like obama wanted it to.
He argued the Stimulus would provide better results than not having the Stimulus (which is what any economists have agreed with), however as far as facts and figures and using #'s, they were based off the information known at the time. While everyone knew we were in a ton of trouble and things were getting quite bad, the extent wasn't known until after some of these reports came out, and the comments were made prior to them.
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Originally Posted by rbohm
yes it is true that we have these downturns, and it does take time to recover, however, recovery from recession usually takes 18 months when the government does nothing. it has been 18 months, and we are looking at a second downturn for the economy because the government got involved. and the reason inflation has not been an issue is because interest rates are near zero right now, but that will have to change in the future, and we as staring down the barrel of hyperinflation because of obamas policies.
No evidence to back up we are headed toward hyper inflation. While interest rates won't stay as low as it is now, nothing indicates we will enter hyper inflation. As far as how long it takes a recover from a recession, keep in mind this isn't and wasn't any average recession. This was a major downturn. When is the last time, we lost 2.2 million jobs in a three month period (which is what we lost during Bush's last three months in office). That immense job loss doesn't just happen in any old recession. Also, the right loves to gloat about Reagan, well at this point in his Presidency unemployment was higher than it is now (and would go even higher). You mention 18 months, it took Reagan more than 30 months for the economy to turn around.
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Originally Posted by rbohm
yes it is true that tax increases on the wealthy are not going to hurt them much, but it will hurt the middle class. remember it is the wealthy in this country that create the jobs. and it isnt just the tax increases coming down the pike, it is also all the new regulations that will cost businesses large sums of money that they cannot afford for health care among other things. as for the tax increases during the clinton years, remember that the dotcom bubble covered any slow down in the economy due to tax increases, as did the liquidation of assets from the savings and loan buy outs during the reagan administration.
Late 93. into 94?? The economy was booming then and that was about a year or two before the dot com bubble started to take off. The VAST majority of small business's make less than $250,000, they won't be impacted. A business in the $300,000 range will see increases of maybe a few hundred $$$.
Cause he is a Kenyan and everyone know Kenyans hate America!
Thats for Ceece
Nothing you have said in response to me or my posts is actually has anything to do with me or my posts. What the heck is wrong with you? Are you actually debating or trolling or...worse?
It's evident, and if people were honest, they would admit President Obama more than just "means well"; He's already demonstrated or exhibited his brilliance, saavy, innovativeness, integrity and character in being a phenomenal president. The problem is they know he's done a great job thus far as president but can't accept the fact there are actual people that have integrity in this world, and in his case, not merely a "politician". He's so much more than that, and everyone knows it. He's not a stereotype, and he can't be "boxed/fit" into just any old category. He's incomparable, and it frustrates people.
The real problem is many people can't get past their biases, and give President Obama proper credit and accolades.
It's anti-American and/or unpatriotic for commentators, analysts and citizens to attack the President in the baseless, unfair, unwarranted and evil manner which many of them have-hiding behind the Constitution to do so. It's embarassing and unfortunate our country still, after all this time, has not "gotten it together". Hopefully, one day we'll be secure enough in ourselves as to not be threatened by the abilities of others.
No evidence to back up we are headed toward hyper inflation. While interest rates won't stay as low as it is now, nothing indicates we will enter hyper inflation.
are you serious? the fed chairman has said that if things dont turn around soon, he will institute a policy of increasing the money supply by printing more money and putting it into circulation. now where has that happened before......... oh yes, the weimar republic did the SAME THING in the 20's and they got hyperinflation as a result. also zimbabwe has done the same thing and again the end result was hyperinflation. in both cases they tried monetizing the debt, and we are well on our way to doing the same thing.
It's evident, and if people were honest, they would admit President Obama more than just "means well"; He's already demonstrated or exhibited his brilliance, saavy, innovativeness, integrity and character in being a phenomenal president. The problem is they know he's done a great job thus far as president but can't accept the fact there are actual people that have integrity in this world, and in his case, not merely a "politician". He's so much more than that, and everyone knows it. He's not a stereotype, and he can't be "boxed/fit" into just any old category. He's incomparable, and it frustrates people.
The real problem is many people can't get past their biases, and give President Obama proper credit and accolades.
It's anti-American and/or unpatriotic for commentators, analysts and citizens to attack the President in the baseless, unfair, unwarranted and evil manner which many of them have-hiding behind the Constitution to do so. It's embarassing and unfortunate our country still, after all this time, has not "gotten it together". Hopefully, one day we'll be secure enough in ourselves as to not be threatened by the abilities of others.
are you serious? the fed chairman has said that if things dont turn around soon, he will institute a policy of increasing the money supply by printing more money and putting it into circulation. now where has that happened before......... oh yes, the weimar republic did the SAME THING in the 20's and they got hyperinflation as a result. also zimbabwe has done the same thing and again the end result was hyperinflation. in both cases they tried monetizing the debt, and we are well on our way to doing the same thing.
Other forces were behind that problem, not to mention the economic circumstances are quite different. Putting more $$ into circulation does not = Hyper inflation....
First off, as far as how high the unemployment would go. Those comments were generally made prior to the extreme extent of the downturn being known. Everyone knew we were in for a big downturn and things would get quite bad, however until the GDP reports of the 4th quarter 08, the earnings reports of 4th quarter 08, the 2.2 million jobs lost during Bush's last three months in office were released, the extent of how bad wasn't known.
Yes, true but that is why you don't make promises that cannot be kept.
He did it for votes knowing quite well it was a gamble.
Remember Bush - No new taxes. Obama will be a one termer just like Bush.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smash255
Secondly, when we have these types of downturns its takes a long time to recover. Its not going to happen overnight. Hell, look at the GOP's hero Reagan, we were another full year into his Presidency than we are into Obama's when things started turning around. Next, we have shown little signs of double digit inflation coming along. Inflation has been generally the one thing that has not been an issue during the recession.
Thou know little about economics. Recessions are generally followed by inflation. Of course that will happen when the republicans take over and will be blamed for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smash255
As far as tax increases, we are talking about a very small segment of the population that will see any type of increase. On top of that the increases will not be on the entire income, only on the portions over $250,000. Also the 28% bracket will be extended slightly upward. Those who are at the levels just over the $250,000 will see no increases or very little. Also increasing taxes for the wealthy hasn't hurt (1993).
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Those very small segment already pay more than 80% of all the taxes collected. I am one of those in the 28% tax bracket so I am sure you are happy about that.
So we are duty-bound to protect Saudi Arabia and Kuwait with our blood because we just wanna help out fellow Jeffersonian republics?
I guess the 1970's oil embargo and subsequent price shocks had no effect on the U.S. because, gee, we import so little oil from the Middle East.
Don't be naive.
That was the 1970's and I waited in those gas lines. This is the present and we no longer get the majority of our crude from the middle east.
We rescued Kuwait from Iraq. Many other countries joined the fight. So I guess all those countries were Jeffersonian republics. Even the Suadi's joined the fight. You may call me naive but at least I don't lie like Turkish rug in the living room.
Since we can't drill here and alternative fuels are way off in the future we have to purchase our fuel from foriegn countries. A green America means we will just be spending more "green" for everything.
Yes, true but that is why you don't make promises that cannot be kept.
He did it for votes knowing quite well it was a gamble.
Remember Bush - No new taxes. Obama will be a one termer just like Bush.
Things would have been even worse without it,
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Originally Posted by deturmind
Thou know little about economics. Recessions are generally followed by inflation. Of course that will happen when the republicans take over and will be blamed for it.
Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. We didn't go through much inflation after the early 90's recession. Also, the point was actually about hyper inflation.
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Originally Posted by deturmind
Those very small segment already pay more than 80% of all the taxes collected. I am one of those in the 28% tax bracket so I am sure you are happy about that.
Well, you did not understand my post. If you are in the 28% bracket your taxes will not increase. By being extended upward I meant the income bracket itself is being pushed upward. Those who are currently in the lower end of the 33% bracket will actually be dropped from the 33% to 28% bracket.
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