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It is not even totally clear who was responsible. Saudis were involved yet we did nothing about that. Obviously Bin laden and his band were, it was right to go to Afghanistan and confront him and the taliban but instead we stayed , we should have attacked, sent a message and left. Then there is Pakistan who plays both sides. Then there is the entire middle east who I think we miscalculated on.
As far as Iraq, there could have other ways to get Sadam without taking over the entire country plus the fact that most Americans don't understand the true culture differences over there. We thought they all wanted democracy and would see us as liberators.
I am never clear on why people think that just because some of the terrorists were originally from Saudi Arabia, we should possibly have held that country responsible. We've been reading for decades about these young, religiously zealous, usually well-educated Saudi men who resent their own country for allowing the US to put military bases on what they consider holy land and who resent the United States for its presence there and for using said military bases to bomb other Muslims. We read about how these same people regularly bomb facilities in their own country connected with the Saudi government. And then somehow it makes sense to hold the Saudi government accountable for their actions?
I realize, poster whose post I quoted, that you did not specifically say that, but many people do parrot "Since 15 of the terrorists were Saudis, why didn't we attack the KSA..." on these threads so I'm assuming that's what you are referencing. Apologies if I am mistaken.
I agree with your last paragraph. We went into Iraq with little consideration as to their own clannish internal wars and understanding of their culture.
Wow, sack up. Next time someone in your family dies I want you to look in the mirror and repeat what you just posted to yourself.
I have had deaths in my family, and yes it is sad. But here's the difference. I morn for a short period of time....Not for almost 10 years! Life goes on. Get over 9/11.
It's not that we over reacted, we reacted wrongly. Attacking the Taliban was justified but Iraq was like attacking Mexico because the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.
I am never clear on why people think that just because some of the terrorists were originally from Saudi Arabia, we should possibly have held that country responsible. .
Well true. My point actually was, America and those who support a war on terror as it has been, have been holding some who might not be responsible for 9/11 as being responsible. Let's face it for some they think the war on terror means going to war with all muslim and middle east nations. That's why they will aways defend Iraq and never admit it was a error. That is why they will call American's who don't want to expand going war with Iran as "weak Islam appologists".
And the reason for that is because people (and the government) won't let it go...
The wars present a problem experienced on a regular basis when you start wars. The get mired. People just see them go on and on but when do you leave? So you leave an someone says Ha you LOST! Can't have that. We're very confused and I suggest with a bit of guilt mixed in here. We don't want it all to fall apart and yet we don't want to be there for 20 years. Remember we had a truce in Korea. Not a win. not a lose. Thats been how many years?
And the other... we can't let it go because it is destroying our country. If we don't try to back off on the taking away of rights and the promotion of anger and deviciveness we will just keep having our rights slip away further. 9-11 isn't what we are not letting go of, its all the little things we encountered along the way. If you want to incite the sheep you just say remember 9-11 and it is okay. Well, to some.
I for one do not want us to "let go" of things like torture and wars that should not have been unless we learn the lessons that we should. I've had crap happen in my life that I have "let go" of, but have not forgotten what it taught me to beware of. We must never ever forget that nations have lessons to learn from mistakes too and until we learn them we should remember why we need to.
I have had deaths in my family, and yes it is sad. But here's the difference. I morn for a short period of time....Not for almost 10 years! Life goes on. Get over 9/11.
I just don't understand your logic on this one. That's like telling the Jews to get over WWII. I mean it's been over 50 years so get over it!
Rebulution, I think the issue is with what 9/11 represented. It was a terrorist attack and we weren't used to being attacked. It was made worse in many people's minds because of where it happened (in NYC) and because of who attacked us (Muslims) and therefore is not just some incident in the minds of many.
Other posters have covered the consequences of that action quite well.
Thank you for the thoughtful post. I have a few questions though.
I don't like the Patriot Act either, but what would you propose as an alternative?
Why don't you think the invasion in Afghanistan was justified? What would you have proposed as an alternative?
How should we keep ourselves safe from terrorism?
Been looking for this message and finally found it.
With Afghanistan, I think we mistook a nation for a bunch of thugs camping out there. We have killed thousands of Afgans in persuit of the taliban, and they just skipped over the border as we advanced. They were in that nation but were holding it hostage. Instead of a full scale war, something surgical and careful and thought out was in order, not an emotion filled act of revenge. Which is just what it was. Ironically, most of those who run the taliban ended up in Pachastan (sp?) which is an ally and would not take kindly to us opening fire there.
We now have a war which our government seems to be convinced we have to keep up despite mounting casualties. We've created a whole new crop of local terrorists who plant roadside bombs and have installed a government which we know will fall without us being there to keep it in power. Remember the Soviets tried to control this country, and they ended up with a major drug problem, domestic unhappiness over it being such a failure that even a dictatorship had to notice, and in the end a contribution to its downfall. Someone with some brain cells firing should have considered that we were inviting ourselves into the same sort of situation. Now we have this problem. We leave and the government falls. Is that our fault? Or theirs?
As for the Patriot Act, it is not a beginning but a continuation. For years we’ve been winding down on our rights, and the largest former excess was Rico. But the Patriot Act gave those who want to control an excuse to legitimize their ideas in the name of our "safety". Now we have a bulging no-fly list with a small percentage of names that might actually count, but which interferes with many thousands more’s lives. And we have the encrochment of surveylence "just in case" in places it wasn’t.
We needed to be more surgical with our intelligence. And actually enforce what was there. The day before 9-11 I took a friend to the airport. He plane was late and we wandered around. We walked past the security screeners four times before they noticed and that was after she had gotten on the plane and I was leaving. The first time I tried to get their attention and was ignored. It occured to me if I'd been up to something nobody would have been the wiser. So first you enforce what you have. Then you find ways of making sure the intelligence which was recieved and ignored is looked at. And instead of virtually making the entire populas a pool of suspects, you target those you have some reason to target. There is NO reason to listen in on every phone call made and have some program "trip" on certain words. You are taking the easy way out and its not even effective.
And we should always remember that to make us "safe" from terrorists we have to not lose ourselves. Which we are doing. When our government tortures in our name, or watches where they don't belong we are saying to them you were a success. We can't find every terrorist. We can't prevent every single event. But we can work within a framework of protected freedoms and rights and intelligence discovered without mass quatities of data which just means much of it never gets looked at.
The mass of what has been found and stopped was with "human" intelligence and that should be stressed, along with effective use of this intellegence. This is harder to do than run a program but works better. And we need to stop making new terrorists. What of those who were not guilty before Quantanamo but joined later? What of those who were insensed with our actions SINCE we started being safe? That is why terrorism is such a successful way to make your point. The individuals are expendable because you know the target will react rather than think and you'll always have more.
I think we are safe from terrorists when we refuse to give up being who we are for them. Unforutnately, I wonder if we haven't gone too far along to be that anymore.
after the Gulf war~ "the Saudi government wants our American bases on their soil, doesn't matter if the Saudi people don't".
Iraq~ "the Iraq people want us on their soil , doesn't matter about the Iraq government".
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