Union WIN! American Axle closes plant, ships operations overseas (legal, health care, suspect)

[brentwoodgirl]

Originally Posted by jambo101

I didnt say a high wage i said a decent fair wage,
Granted some wages are only worth minimum wage while others would be worth more

So what's a fair wage?

Goodyear just closed a plant in NW Tennesse due to a labor agreement. The workers average $23 a hour, so almost $48,000 a year, plus any overtime.

The median income in the town where the plant was located is $31,000, and that figure includes the Goodyear salaries so average non-Goodyear workers are actually making less.

The median house price in that town is about $90,000. And you can easily by a 3BD/2BA for $60,000.
Here's one example:
4133 Ken Tenn Hwy Tn TN - Home For Sale and Real Estate Listing - MLS #31639 - Realtor.com®

What's a fair wage for a factory worker in this town? Should a factory worker make 50+% more than other average workers?

I agree with you that people should make a fair wage. But that should partly be dictated by cost living of that area.

The Union sacrificed this plant to keep other union plants running. This is going to kill this small town, and it's surrounding area. I'm not sure that area will ever recover. I wonder if the union had allowed the Goodyear salaries at this plant to be reduced to the average salaries in that area if that plant would have been able to stay open? I guess we'll never know.

[Bagger]

Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge

Link, please?

The article states that American Axle didn't ask for wage cuts, and also proposed transferring some operations from Mexico to the Buffalo area plant. The union rejected their proposal.

On the concessions from As Talks Drag, American Axle Strike Enters Third Month | Labor Notes

The last AAM contract, which contained concessions for workers yet to be hired, was ratified by a small margin, partly because it contained a $5,000 signing bonus. Rumors swirl of an even larger bonus offer—$6,000 or $7,000—this time. If strikers accept, they will lose far more than that in their first year of work, as hourly pay drops from $28 to $14.

On increased profits and a little more on concessions from Autos Insider | Union rejects proposal at American Axle plant in Buffalo, N.Y. | The Detroit News (http://www.detnews.com/article/20110817/AUTO01/108170429/1361/Union-rejects-proposal-at-American-Axle-plant-in-Buffalo--N.Y. - broken link)

Negotiations on behalf of the New York employees broke down July 31 when UAW Local 846 members voted 98 percent in favor of rejecting a proposal that was described as the company's "last best and final proposal" for Cheektowaga, the union said in a release Wednesday.

"This is an indication that hard-working people are sick of constantly helping companies through concessions and back to profitability and companies refusing to share in that," said UAW Vice President Cindy Estrada.

American Axle reported second-quarter earnings of $49.2 million, up from $25.4 million a year before.

"Here is a business that started out as an American company providing good-paying jobs to 6,000 employees," Estrada said. "As a result of the hard work of these employees, it has grown to an international company with 32 factories worldwide. All of this success was achieved off the backs of the original 6,000 hard-working Americans."

Scott Adams, director of UAW Region 9, which includes the Buffalo area, said the Cheektowaga employees made sacrifices when American Axle was in trouble and are now fighting to maintain a decent standard of living.

[GregW]

I am approaching this intellectually. If I were allowing my emotional response the recommendations would be far more radical and severe for the executives selling out our country for their personal gain. I do know what to do with traitors and oath breakers. I really do.

I would eliminate the "economic disincentives" you claim are created by collective bargaining by eliminating the profits to be made by off shoring manufacturing. That is the point of countervailing tariffs and why most countries depend on them to keep their economies afloat. This applies to open shop as well as union plants. I do not know of any country on the planet that will allow its basic industries to be shipped overseas. Even Germany with some of the highest wages in the world is keeping its steel and auto industries intact by using tariffs among other things.

We need to revitalize our basic industrial capacity to make steel, for instance, out of American ore, reduced with American coal and cast and rolled into structural shapes to rebuild our bridges, canals, water works and all the rest. We need to invest in us even if it costs the top 1% some of their profits.

In addition to tariffs we need to control the export of our capital. I suggest doubling the capital gains and income taxes on money made overseas. We also need to eliminate our government spending on preserving the privilege of the international petroleum industry. All of our recent wars were and are to protect someone else’s access and control of oil. They benefit and we pay. That is sheer foolishness. Let the Brits, Saudis and Dutch royals pay for protecting their own investments.

I may be a progressive left wing radical by this board's standard but i am a US citizen first last and always. I took an oath to defend this countrry and it’s Constitution from all enemies, domestic and foreign. I consider the executives and financiers that place their personal wealth above the need to keep this country strong and independent of foreign coercion to be our domestic enemies. They need to be reminded that they are Americans and their country, including union and nonunion workers, is more important than their individual wealth and aggrandizement.

[hoffdano]

Originally Posted by Wayland Woman

You got that right!

From The Detroit News: Autos Insider | American Axle N.Y. plant workers reject tentative pact | The Detroit News (http://detnews.com/article/20110818/AUTO01/108180349/American-Axle-N.Y.-plant-workers-reject-tentative-pact#ixzz1VUVxAuao - broken link)

American Axle told its workers three years ago at contract time it would close their U.S. doors by 2011 if they didn't get wages down to $14.00 an hour. That contract was settled at $18.00 an hour and company is just making good on that promise since they couldn't get additional concessions this contract. Pure greed on their part.

Why buys the products from American Axle? Automakers? Do you think it is greedy of AA to try to remain competitive in their business? If they cannot remain competitive, won't other companies take their business?

It isn't greedy of them to try to earn a profit and stay alive. I don't like jobs moving offshore, but the answer is not always "greed."

[hoffdano]

Originally Posted by MTAtech

Alternatively, what you are supporting is a race to the bottom until American workers earn the same ultra-low wages as Chinese workers who have no benefits and no protections.

China has protections on their markets (China imposes Tariffs and has trade quotas. If a company wants to sell in China, it must produce in China) while China has completely free unimpeded reign over our markets which forces us to directly compete with slave children in sweat shops getting paid 35 cents a day. I don't want to compete with that. I want us to slap heavy tariffs on anything made with child slave labor.

Corporations have no patriotism, or duty to protect America. Their duty is to make as much profit as possible and if exploiting children is profitable; poisoning the rivers and polluting the air is profitable, they'll do it.

The government has the legitimate role to make the rules of the road and form tariff policy to protect our citizens -- it has nothing to do with the hard-right red herring -- Socialism. It has to do with common sense.

Are the Buicks that are so popular in China made in China?

[CrownVic95]

Originally Posted by GregW

The world needs to be shocked into realizing we are tired of being robbed for their prosperity and protection. We need to institute countervailing tariffs to protect all of our workers not just the unionized. We need to stop getting into wars to protect the international oil cartels that are robbing us blind. They should be building sand boxes in Abu Dhabi not skyscrapers.

AFAK the guy that closed American Axle should be fined his entire fortune and spend a few years in jail with the dope dealers. He and his ilk are doing more damage to the USA than any of our enemies have managed since WW2. All for his personal greed.

BTW – Wanting to keep a decent working class life is NOT GREEDY. Wanting to change from a millionaire to billionaire at the expense of your employees certainly is.

Greg, terrific series of posts in this thread as I've come to expect.

And frankly what I admire most is the patience you show for the shallow minds who express no concern whatever for the demise of their country, as big business continues to pillage unabated. By that I simply mean that, when I read their soulless viewpoints, I get too angry to respond and still comply with the TOS. Your eloquence and calm demeanor is remarkable considering the damage that the group you are addressing is doing to our once great nation and the life quality decline we all see ahead of us as a result.

I know you consider yourself a liberal guy, so please don't take offense, but you could teach them a thing or two about what conservatism really means. Because the group in question doesn't have a clue. The last thing conservatism is is cutting America's jugular and sucking all you can as the blood flows to the third world. That's pure sociopathic, treasonous greed to the most despicable level.

We need safeguards....tariffs/laws/whatever....in place to make sure this sad, sad period in our history can never, ever happen again. But then I'm not so deluded as to think our government is still by the people, for the people.

Thank you, Greg....more reps to you.

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by BentBow

Who doesn't get it????

You don't.

Originally Posted by BentBow

If we had sky high trade tariffs and illegal immigration enforcement, our unions, excessive rules & regulations, would not be frowned upon so greatly right now.

That's probably because you'd all be living in cardboard boxes eating mud and you wouldn't have time to worry about.

Originally Posted by GregW

Allowing the "Free Trade" really has been a devastating to the American economy as losing a major war.

Then you'd better vote for Obama and ensure he gets to enact the free-trade agreements he's working on with three other countries right now.

Originally Posted by GregW

A steel mill scrapped because Korean steel is cheaper is just a destroyed as if it were bombed by terrorists.

And you are the terrorist.

Originally Posted by GregW

We need FAIR Trade, not unfair trade that is robbing us of any semblance of previous prosperity.

You stole the wealth and resources of other countries for 100+ years through murder, assassination, torture, terror, coup d'état, force, the threat of force, puppet-dictators and the like robbing those countries of any semblance of prosperity, and now you want "FAIR Trade?

Oh, that is just too rich.
Your idea of "fair trade" is overthrowing the government of Honduras because it wanted US corporations to pay taxes, which is what Obama did 2 years ago. That is a classic example.

You just might want to consider that you need the rest of the world. They don't need you. You're a measly 4.5% of the global market not really worth bothering with.

Originally Posted by le roi

unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Japan, Korea, Canada, Australia, Europe, Latin America, etc., would fill the void and buy those cheaper, better products.

That is exactly what would happen.

Originally Posted by Dumbdowndemocrats

Who makes better products?

There is no real qualitative difference, and any differences that exist are purely imagined.

You can read (maybe) studies about that. There is absolutely no difference in quality with denim jeans. It doesn't matter if they are made here or in Mexico, or Mauritania or Bangladesh, because every single pair of blue jeans that exist on Earth come from those countries (and and a few others).

It's the name brand. Every study done in the last 30 years has proven that.

Originally Posted by Dumbdowndemocrats

Name me a company overseas that can compare to a Harley ? They are all rice burners...

That is a matter of personal preference and style, not quality.

Originally Posted by Wayland Woman

After the union gave concessions late year in benefits and wages the company's profits soared to $47.9 million from $25.3 million

Yeah, so? What were their profits in the 12 years prior to that? Or did they even have profits? You're quite disingenuous.

And what's wrong with profits?

How should American Axle fund the expansion of its plant to hire more employees, or purchase new machinery so that it operates more efficiently and is safe for the workers, should it use profits or should company execs strip down and pole dance for charity?

Originally Posted by Wayland Woman

the year before yet American Axle STILL wanted deeper cuts in wages which would have amounted to workers taking a 50% reduction in pay over the past three years.

Um, does the Earth end on December 31, 2011, or does it continue on?

There is something called "the Future." Look into it. Another concept that is apparently difficult for you to comprehend is "foresight."

Another would probably be "planning."

Another would be Market & Sales Strategy, along with Pricing Strategy. Those things aren't free, by the way, they cost money. Yeah, profits, that's what you use them for.

There's no doubt you've never run your own business, and I would highly recommend against it since things like "the Future," "foresight," "planning," "Marketing & Sales Strategy," and "Pricing Strategy" weird you out.

Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge

Link, please?

The article states that American Axle didn't ask for wage cuts, and also proposed transferring some operations from Mexico to the Buffalo area plant. The union rejected their proposal.

I wouldn't expect a link, but , yeah, well, the union is way too stupid to understand that moving operations from Mexico to Buffalo isn't free. It costs money (yeah, profits, that's how they're used for those who cannot comprehend).

Originally Posted by Wayland Woman

The fact is the average auto worker in Mexico is getting $6.94 an hour. What auto worker in America could live on that kind of a wage?

You could do it. You might have to cancel your cable/satellite, but then that is luxury and not a necessity.

You might have to cancel the internet and cell-phone too, but then those things are luxuries and not necessities.

You'd probably have to sell 2-3 of your cars, since you wouldn't be able to have 4-5 cars, and I'd guess you'd probably have to settle for a smaller 2,100 sq ft home instead of a 4,400 sq ft McMansion. You might even have to share your home with another family to be able to afford it.

But it would be good for you. You could see how the other 70% of the people on the Planet live.

Originally Posted by MTAtech

Alternatively, what you are supporting is a race to the bottom until American workers earn the same ultra-low wages as Chinese workers who have no benefits and no protections.

You mean no benefits and no protections that you're aware of.

Why are you worried about it? You've been supporting it for 100+ years, why all the concern now?

Logically, if every country was left to their own devices and not interfered with, you would be earning the same "ultra-low" wages as the rest of the world.

But you interfered, and you blocked those countries from developing, and that's why you have ultra-high wages.

Except many of those countries have wiggled out from under your Imperial Thumb and they are now developing and now that they are, you can't compete against them.

So, yes, your wages will very slowly continue to decline for the next 50-60 years until the rest of the world catches up, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Originally Posted by MTAtech

...while China has completely free unimpeded reign over our markets which forces us to directly compete with slave children in sweat shops getting paid 35 cents a day.

Crocodile tears from the hypocrite. You weren't crying a river when your slave children were working in sweat shops 90 years ago.

And what's wrong with $0.35/day?

National Sugar saw fit to pay Cuban sugar cane field workers $0.30/day for a 10 hour day, while your minimum wage was $0.90/hour.

And when Castro insisted that National Sugar pay $0.90/day like they paid their Honduran, Guatemalan and Nicaraguan sugar cane field workers, you threw a total hissy fit like a small child and have spent 50 years and $Billions trying to murder and overthrow Castro.

Looks like you talk out of both sides of your neck. What's good for the goose is always good for the gander.

Every country that has ever industrialized has used child labor, including the Almighty US. It is a necessary evil, because industrialization requires massive labor. Once industrialization is complete, the children are no longer needed.

So what, you think they should get paid over and above what the labor market demands? Oh, that's brilliant, because that would induce Wage Inflation. Why don't you read about what FDR and Nixon did when the US had rampant Wage Inflation that drove prices sky-high.

A lot of people on this Planet have a good life with just $300/month. They might not have 4-5 cars or a 4.400 sq ft McMansion, or a 100 meter Plasma TV and 5,000 High-Definition cable/satellite channels, and waste $100s of their money each week on consumable-disposable goods, but they do have a roof over their head and food on the table and nice clothes to wear and they party-hardy.

Originally Posted by MTAtech

I don't want to compete with that. I want us to slap heavy tariffs on anything made with child slave labor.

I guess it's a good thing the rest of the world didn't slap heavy tariffs on you when you had child slave labor.

Originally Posted by GregW

The world needs to be shocked into realizing we are tired of being robbed for their prosperity and protection.

Again, this is just too rich.

How long have you Slave-Lorded over the Hondurans? 150 years and they still don't have electricity or running water or sewage or even roads.

And why don't they? Because you've overthrow their government 14 times in the last 150 years, including 2 years ago when Obama overthrew the government.

None of the US corporations in Honduras (or Guatemala or Nicaragua) pay any taxes. In fact, you murdered a Nicaraguan president for attempting to collect taxes from US corporations and then when his successor asked politely if he could tax US corporations, you overthrew his government.

That's why Castro expropriated all of the US assets in Cuba. Your corporations refused to pay taxes, and you backed them up with your army.

That's why the oil in Mexico is nationalized, because President Cardenas expropriated all of the US oil company assets because they refused to pay taxes, and your response was to threaten to invade, although you never did.

And there are dozens of countries the you've f*cked over just like that.

This is just karma boomeranging right back in your face, and I get the impression you don't like it. Good, because neither did the people you oppressed for decades.

The world is changing, and you either change and adapt with it, or get buried, and from the stupid talk on this thread (and others) you're going to get buried.

BRIC's GPD is collectively more than yours, which means they can effect more control, and China's GDP alone will surpass yours while your mired in debt.

BRIC will be able to develop even more countries faster, and that will but a serious tax on resources, especially commodities, but BRIC won't suffer, because they are building trading partners and because their wages are no so disparate. Your average Russian only makes $300/month, so the gap in countries where people are making $30 to $120/month isn't so great.

They won't lose their jobs like you are (ha ha).

When BRIC starts developing sub-Saharan Africa, I feel for you all. You'll be so lost and out of it. Oh, well.

Originally Posted by GregW

We need to institute countervailing tariffs to protect all of our workers not just the unionized.

Again, you're just a measly lousy 4.5% of the global market.

Go ahead and isolate and enact your protective tariffs. I guarndamtee within 5 years you'll be the largest 3rd World Country on the Planet.

The only possible way you can win is by re-inventing yourselves, and the only way you could ever do that is a total decentralization of the government, pushing power down into the States and letting the States step up and take a greater role in their economies and the welfare of their people.

But you don't have the guts to do that, so it's just a pipe dream.

[Bagger]

Originally Posted by CrownVic95

Greg, terrific series of posts in this thread as I've come to expect.

And frankly what I admire most is the patience you show for the shallow minds who express no concern whatever for the demise of their country, as big business continues to pillage unabated. By that I simply mean that, when I read their soulless viewpoints, I get too angry to respond and still comply with the TOS. Your eloquence and calm demeanor is remarkable considering the damage that the group you are addressing is doing to our once great nation and the life quality decline we all see ahead of us as a result.

I know you consider yourself a liberal guy, so please don't take offense, but you could teach them a thing or two about what conservatism really means. Because the group in question doesn't have a clue. The last thing conservatism is is cutting America's jugular and sucking all you can as the blood flows to the third world. That's pure sociopathic, treasonous greed to the most despicable level.

We need safeguards....tariffs/laws/whatever....in place to make sure this sad, sad period in our history can never, ever happen again. But then I'm not so deluded as to think our government is still by the people, for the people.

Thank you, Greg....more reps to you.

I agree... I have to spread some around but here's a rep

[GregW]

Mircea - and you are a citizen of what country?

I will admit that we have been an imperial power in South and Central America for a couple of centuries. But that was then (unless you provide a link I do not believe your story about Honduras) and I am talking about now and tomorrow. We may only be 4.5% of the world's population but we are a damn rich 4.5% and I intend we remain that way. I would love to see the world catch up with us by increasing their prosperity but I do not want it done at the expense of our own.


BTW - I have been an officially sanctioned terrorist supported by this government. I was really good at it.

[SourD]

Originally Posted by GregW

Mircea - and you are a citizen of what country?

I will admit that we have been an imperial power in South and Central America for a couple of centuries. But that was then (unless you provide a link I do not believe your story about Honduras) and I am talking about now and tomorrow. We may only be 4.5% of the world's population but we are a damn rich 4.5% and I intend we remain that way. I would love to see the world catch up with us by increasing their prosperity but I do not want it done at the expense of our own.

Greg, you must be in a rather good mood or something today. As another poster pointed out, I don't agree with you much on just about anything, but you have a good string of posts going here. +1