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Retreating is not the only reasonable attempt to escape the circumstances.....you can use your mouth and talk or scream to the person attacking you that you mean no harm, that you are the neighborhood watch guy, that this is all a mistake.
According to Zimmerman's own statement he did manage to suddenly get free, scoot on the sidewalk and had the gun, which Trayvon was trying to grab. Zimmerman said that Trayvon put both of his hands on Zimmerman's mouth and nose, he couldn't breath, and that's when he was able to get suddenly free and shot Trayvon. See, that's why it's wise not to rush to judgement based on what you read in the media, and why it's important to listen very carefully to every single word of testimony which comes from the witness stand.
The State can put forth any theory they want at the trial, via witnesses and physical and documentary evidence, and then it will be up to a jury to decide whether or not it's ridiculous.
Two problems with that scenario.
1. Zimmerman's brother tells us that George attempted to move his head onto the grass to supposedly soften the blows from the concrete sidewalk, not the other way around.
2. How can one's screams for help be heard so audibly while the mouth and nose are covered and breathing is interrupted?
1. Zimmerman's brother tells us that George attempted to move his head onto the grass to supposedly soften the blows from the concrete sidewalk, not the other way around.
2. How can one's screams for help be heard so audibly while the mouth and nose are covered and breathing is interrupted?
Well, #2 was Zimmerman's statement. Guess that would make it hard for him to scream for help, if Trayvon had both his hands over Zimmerman's mouth and nose, so maybe it was Trayvon screaming for help.
#1 was also a statement by Zimmerman which I guess is a contradiction from what he told his brother or what his brother understood?
Here is a portion of the CNN transcript which I find very interesting. Quite clearly the investigator is saying that they have evidence, including Zimmerman's inconsistent statements, which contradicts Zimmerman's version of what happened.
What is also very interesting is that this is what many of us have been saying on City-Data for over a month. There are too many contradictions. Of course, when someone is very frightened and injured, he might get a little confused.
I think your post contradicts itself. On the one hand, you're saying that we can't tell by looking at someone how serious his injuries are, but on the other hand, you're saying it's indisputable that Zimmerman was one blow away from living in diapers. However, if this is "indisputable" then why would a trained medical professional who deals with head injuries all the time, clean up Zimmerman's wounds and release him to the police without an X-ray or examination by an ER doctor? I understand that the police cannot force you to go to the hospital, but if Zimmerman was offered assistance and declined, he's a fool, especially if he's telling the truth. After all, X-rays and an exam by a doctor after the shooting would be evidence to support him!
Look, I understand how stressful it is to get a hospital bill. I've mentioned in several posts that I was hurt a couple of years ago. In fact, I posted on CD after my release. When the paramedics showed up I kept saying, "I just want to go home" and reached for my cell phone to call for a ride, but they got a stretcher and carried me to the ambulance. I couldn't even sit up, so I admit I didn't have much of a choice. However, the first thing I was asked is "did you hit your head?" I had a fractured pelvis and couldn't move, but I remember that was the first question. "Did you hit your head when you fell? Did you lose consciousness at any time?" Before putting a collar on my neck, he did a spinal check. In the ambulance I was checked for double vision, confusion, dizziness and amnesia. I guess that was to rule out any signs of a severe head injury. I was asked to count backwards, and when he asked "who is the President of the United States" and I answered, "tell me it's not Sarah Palin or I'll know I've gone to hell!" he laughed and said, "She's okay!"
BTW, I agree with you that it's not always possible to know if someone is seriously injured after getting his head hit on the ground. We've all read about athletes who die after a head trauma. But this is why I keep saying that, had he mentioned this to the paramedics on the scene AND he was bleeding, I don't understand why he wouldn't go to the hospital! He was so badly injured that he thought he was going to die, had the presence of mind to have photos taken of his bleeding head and tell a neighbor to call his wife, but 5 minutes earlier, he was seconds away from brain death. I'm not saying he's lying, but it doesn't sound very rational.
I was making a legal point, not a medical or social point. The state's witness at the bail hearing admitted his injuries were consistent with getting your head slammed on something hard. We know he had those injuries, it's not in dispute.
What I am saying is that, given the legal standard of reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury, Zimmerman clearly had such a reasonable fear (at sone point). Merely having your head slammed is enough to generate such a fear. Whether he actually suffered such a life-threatening injury is completely beside the point legally (as it should be - a victim doesn't have to wait until they're actually dying to defend themselves).
I do understand what others are saying in Zimmerman's defense. However, it's not very smart to go home without an exam, especially if you might need evidence to back up your story that you killed someone in self defense. Maybe he was in shock.
He was held for some time at the police station. IMO probably was mixed up some with his head beaten in.
Police should have had someone in the station if they existed take another look at him a while later. Brain can get swollen, blood can drip into the brain. All sorts of nasties could happen.
There is a doctor's report about the condition of GZ by the way.
There were also tons of next day neighbor witnesses that reported George was all swollen up, had a badly swollen nose, his head looked cut up with butterfly bandaids. He looked messed up.
I think your post contradicts itself. On the one hand, you're saying that we can't tell by looking at someone how serious his injuries are, but on the other hand, you're saying it's indisputable that Zimmerman was one blow away from living in diapers. However, if this is "indisputable" then why would a trained medical professional who deals with head injuries all the time, clean up Zimmerman's wounds and release him to the police without an X-ray or examination by an ER doctor? I understand that the police cannot force you to go to the hospital, but if Zimmerman was offered assistance and declined, he's a fool, especially if he's telling the truth. After all, X-rays and an exam by a doctor after the shooting would be evidence to support him!
Look, I understand how stressful it is to get a hospital bill. I've mentioned in several posts that I was hurt a couple of years ago. In fact, I posted on CD after my release. When the paramedics showed up I kept saying, "I just want to go home" and reached for my cell phone to call for a ride, but they got a stretcher and carried me to the ambulance. I couldn't even sit up, so I admit I didn't have much of a choice. However, the first thing I was asked is "did you hit your head?" I had a fractured pelvis and couldn't move, but I remember that was the first question. "Did you hit your head when you fell? Did you lose consciousness at any time?" Before putting a collar on my neck, he did a spinal check. In the ambulance I was checked for double vision, confusion, dizziness and amnesia. I guess that was to rule out any signs of a severe head injury. I was asked to count backwards, and when he asked "who is the President of the United States" and I answered, "tell me it's not Sarah Palin or I'll know I've gone to hell!" he laughed and said, "She's okay!"
BTW, I agree with you that it's not always possible to know if someone is seriously injured after getting his head hit on the ground. We've all read about athletes who die after a head trauma. But this is why I keep saying that, had he mentioned this to the paramedics on the scene AND he was bleeding, I don't understand why he wouldn't go to the hospital! He was so badly injured that he thought he was going to die, had the presence of mind to have photos taken of his bleeding head and tell a neighbor to call his wife, but 5 minutes earlier, he was seconds away from brain death. I'm not saying he's lying, but it doesn't sound very rational.
I was making a legal point, not a medical or social point. The state's witness at the bail hearing admitted his injuries were consistent with getting your head slammed on something hard. We know he had those injuries, it's not in dispute.
What I am saying is that, given the legal standard of reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury, Zimmerman clearly had such a reasonable fear (at sone point). Merely having your head slammed is enough to generate such a fear. Whether he actually suffered such a life-threatening injury is completely beside the point legally (as it should be - a victim doesn't have to wait until they're actually dying to defend themselves). Was Zimmerman unwise from a personal standpoint to refuse medical treatment? Maybe, but thats hardly evidence of guilt. If you still seriously doubt that an innocent person (just assume for a moment he was legally innocent in the buildup to the fight) in such a situation legally has a right to deadly force, look at some justified police shootings. If a suspect is on top of an officer hitting him, the officer will use deadly force and not face punishment. It might even be a by-the-books thing to do. There is no rationale for an officer having more of a right to defend themselves inna had situation than a non-officer.
What I'm saying basically boils down to this:
1) we know beyond doubt that Zimmerman suffered injuries such that in the midst of suffering those injuries he could have had a reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury.
2) under FL law (and most/all states) a person experiencing such a reasonable fear of imminent harm is legally able to kill in self defense (assuming no possibility of retreat, no complicating factors such as having instigated the fight, etc.)
3) given 1) an 2), the case boils down to the circumstances that led up to Zimmerman having his head pounded. If the prosecution cannot prove that Zimmerman unjustifiably drew his gun or otherwise assaulted (assault using legal definition - not necessarily battery) Martin such that Martin was defending himself from Zimmerman, Zimmerman will and should walk. If the prosecution has no real evidence even supporting that Zimmerman started it (which their witness admitted at bail hearing), the indictment itself was improper.
I was making a legal point, not a medical or social point. The state's witness at the bail hearing admitted his injuries were consistent with getting your head slammed on something hard. We know he had those injuries, it's not in dispute.
What I am saying is that, given the legal standard of reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury, Zimmerman clearly had such a reasonable fear (at sone point). Merely having your head slammed is enough to generate such a fear. Whether he actually suffered such a life-threatening injury is completely beside the point legally (as it should be - a victim doesn't have to wait until they're actually dying to defend themselves).
What in saying basically p
EXACTLY and he could not retreat while on his back with someone on top of him either.
I was making a legal point, not a medical or social point. The state's witness at the bail hearing admitted his injuries were consistent with getting your head slammed on something hard. We know he had those injuries, it's not in dispute.
What I am saying is that, given the legal standard of reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury, Zimmerman clearly had such a reasonable fear (at sone point). Merely having your head slammed is enough to generate such a fear. Whether he actually suffered such a life-threatening injury is completely beside the point legally (as it should be - a victim doesn't have to wait until they're actually dying to defend themselves).
What in saying basically p
Also part of the law is that Zimmerman had to exhaust every reasonable attempt to escape from the situation which was causing him such fear before using deadly force.
There was testimony in the bail hearing that Zimmerman made a statement that Trayvon put both his hands on his (Zim) mouth and nose, and it was at that point he was suddenly able to get free from Trayvon but Trayvon was grabbing for the gun, and that's when he shot him.
If, in fact, Trayvon had put both his hands on Zimmerman's nose and mouth, then I guess Zimmerman could not have been screaming help just prior to the gunshot. That makes it more likely that Trayvon was screaming "help."
What is also very interesting is that this is what many of us have been saying on City-Data for over a month. There are too many contradictions. Of course, when someone is very frightened and injured, he might get a little confused.
Unfortunately, many inconsistent statements look like not being truthful. The state seems to think they have evidence which shows the statements to be untrue.
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