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Old 07-07-2012, 12:01 PM
 
33,387 posts, read 34,863,645 times
Reputation: 20030

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrier View Post
All you anti-assembly people had better not host any Monday Night Football games at your home this fall.

The blatant attack on Christian gathering and Bible study in this case couldn't be more obvious - the man and his family are being attacked because of their faith. Any secular regular meeting would not be met with such force.

Did you hear what the prosecutor called him - a rebel? Yep - exercise your constitutional liberty and you become a rebel - and thus an enemy of the state.

This is what America has degenerated into - we are now practically no different than a banana republic.
its one thing to host a few monday night football parties, it is another to host a weekly church meeting. there are certain rules that need to be followed for the latter, and he followed NONE of those rules. there are also zoning laws that need to be followed, again he followed none of them.

there is no persecution of christians here, and there is no violation of free assembly rights either. the violations are those of the home owner who lied on his permit applications, and failed to follow the law.
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:22 PM
 
14,917 posts, read 13,109,537 times
Reputation: 4828
Ahh Google. Here's a good read from January 2008 about this man, his quest to build a church on his property (and yes Harrier, he calls it a church), and the ensuing nasty feud it caused with his neighbors (who then involved the city).

Michael Salman wants to build a church in his backyard. His neighbors aren't buying it - Page 1 - News - Phoenix - Phoenix New Times


It's long, so I'll give a quick overview for those who don't want to read it all:


Michael Salman - who goes by the name Kryptologos - started a Church in his home, the Harvest Christian Fellowship, in 2001. Within a year, his flock grew to 70, so he started to seek a larger space. He convinced a local Church to hire him as pastor who would be responsible for the upkeep of their building, but they quickly fired him for changing the church name without permission - they actually had to go to court and file a forcible retainer because he refused to leave. He then rented some space for a few years at a baptist church, but didn't really like the arrangement as he wanted his own space for his Church.

Not able to buy any existing church properties (millions - too expensive), in 2005 he decided to buy a residential property with some land, live there, and then build a church there too. He bought a 3500 sq ft home on a 1.5 acre lot in the Phoenix neighborhood of North Glen with the intention of building a Church on the property. He'd called the city to ask if zoning allowed a church - which it does - but he apparently didn't look into the specifics.

Upon moving to the neighborhood, he started holding church in his home, and then announced at a neighborhood meeting he intended to build a church on his property complete with Sunday services, weeknight Bible studies, a workout room, basketball court, and a Christian day care center. This upset many of his neighbors who were concerned about traffic and property values. In 2007 he started construction, but neighbors who viewed the permit found out that while planning to build the full service church he'd described, his permit only allowed for the building of an unplumbed, unelectrified shed-like structure. They informed the city and had him shut down.

Then things got nasty. A neighbor did some digging and found his criminal (felony) record: Salman served 3 years for a drive by shooting and trying to bribe the prosecutor. He was also later arrested, while a pastor, for impersonating a police officer. The neighbor also dug up a letter Salman had submitted to the local government in which he declared himself an Emissary of God and that, like all true Christians, he did not have to follow, and was not beholden to, the laws of the United States or any other earthly laws. The neighbor passed around these document. At one point Salman harassed prospective buyers for his next door neighbor's house, and that neighbor took our a restraining order against him. Neighbors then started calling the city to report that Salman was holding church services in an existing shed on his property. Salman responded by holding Church service in the neighborhood park using a public address system that could be heard over a mile away. At one point Salman let his Church's incorporation lapse, and a neighbor jumped in an took the name from under him.

Eventually, Salman tried to go about building his church legally. Phoenix allows churches in residential areas with little red tape - the main requirement being the church has to be the primary usage on the land (basically the largest structure). He submitted an application for a 4200 sq ft church. Neighbors then filed a complaint that his plans did not meet parking requirements (you need 1 parking spot for every 3 congregants a church is designed to accommodate, plus handicap spots).

And then the story ends by commenting that Salman can't afford to build the church if he goes by the book (too expensive), plus it would require paving most of his property over as a parking lot - something he doesn't want to do. Salman also expresses excitement that the city will try and shut him again since he could then sue, resulting in the city paying for his church.
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Humboldt Park, Chicago
3,501 posts, read 3,138,787 times
Reputation: 2597
Wow, that poor innocent persecuted angel.
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:53 PM
 
14,917 posts, read 13,109,537 times
Reputation: 4828
Quote:
Originally Posted by quigboto View Post
Wow, that poor innocent persecuted angel.
Yep. Just a meek Christian trying to spread the word crushed at the hands of "godless, intolerant, anti-Constitution Democrats" as Harrier put it.
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Rational World Park
4,991 posts, read 4,507,843 times
Reputation: 2375
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Old 07-07-2012, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
14,361 posts, read 9,795,791 times
Reputation: 6663
It's amazing that so many anti-religious zealots completely deflect/ignore the right to assemble. Is there a maximum allowable number of people one can have over to the house? God forbid anyone has a wedding/reception or a party in their home. Is there some claus in the Constitution that nulls our rights "if the city codes it illegal"?

Forget that it was one of those evil bible studies for a moment; the city is crushing his first ammendment right to assemble under the cover of a city code violation.

Isn't this great?

Last edited by steven_h; 07-07-2012 at 02:14 PM..
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Old 07-07-2012, 02:07 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 37,070,009 times
Reputation: 15038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
Building codes apply whether you host people for bible study or orgies.
What about bible study orgies? Sort of an hands on study of Sodom and Gomorrah (pun intended).
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Old 07-07-2012, 02:09 PM
 
477 posts, read 365,524 times
Reputation: 139
Only in Amerika people are required to get permission before having a meeting in their own home...unbelievable. I am not a christian hell im not even religious but this is absolutely unbelievable. Government gone WAY overboard.
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Old 07-07-2012, 02:20 PM
 
14,917 posts, read 13,109,537 times
Reputation: 4828
Quote:
Originally Posted by CouponDad View Post
Only in Amerika people are required to get permission before having a meeting in their own home...unbelievable. I am not a christian hell im not even religious but this is absolutely unbelievable. Government gone WAY overboard.
How would you feel if your next door neighbor (in an urban, single-family home neighborhood) lied to the city by telling them he was building a shed/garage but instead constructed a fully operational Church (yet unsafe with major code violations) serving 70 or so congregants 3+ days and nights a week?

I don't call that a meeting in your own house. You do?
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Old 07-07-2012, 02:22 PM
 
Location: White House, TN
6,486 posts, read 6,190,356 times
Reputation: 4584
That's messed up. Who in their right mind would arrest a man hosting a CHURCH? Blah blah blah permits legalese... this isn't how the Founding Fathers envisioned things.
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