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We live in the only country founded on the basis of individual liberty and limited government. I see no need to seek inspiration from other countries. Why do you?
Because, NONE of what you claim is true. There were plenty of inspirations and influences that are a part of the foundation of this nation, with Maga Carta perhaps leading the way.
Now, it is okay to say that you aren't left with even ONE nation that follows your ideas to the core. The ideas being Utopian in goals, and self-defeating in practice for the people. That you're left with having to choose from countries you'd rather not associate with.
Please, help me understand what in my post is conjecture?
You said:
America rose to power because we invaded a giant, perfect and strategically located piece of land and used slaves to generate enormous wealth.
That's leftist propaganda. America is evil because it rose to prominence on the backs of slaves. The truth is America was a minor nation until after slavery was abolished. America's rise occurred with industry after the Civil War. While slavery existed it only existed in the least wealthy, least populous, least influential, and least industrialized areas of the country. At the time America was a slaveholding nation, it was weaker than the non-slave nations in Europe. If this bit of leftist rhetoric was true, then the South should have won the Civil War.
You said:
We found huge mineral deposits and mined them and created more wealth.
This is the only true thing in your post.
You said:
We grew a huge army and based on all of that in less than 300 years are where we are at. Trust me, we are still infants in the grand scheme of things. Our growing pains will work themselves out.
That is patently false. America had one of the smallest armies of any first world nation up until World War One. After that we drew down again to skeletal status until World War Two. America was also isolationist. It was only post WW2 when America took on the position of guarding the free world against communism that it maintained a permant strong military.
There isn't a country in the world that has enough widespread Christianity and economic inequality / villification of the poor to make them happy. Thus, here in the US they want public prayers and the head of state to be Jesus Christ, and take food and medicine away from the poor while raising their taxes (and cutting taxes on the rich), because schoolyard-style fairness is more important than happiness or progress.
Obama's the one who said he wanted to raise taxes on the rich as a matter of fairness even if it actually reduced revenues. So I'm afraid you're pointing your finger in the wrong direction when it comes to schoolyard-style fairness at the expense of genuine progress.
Many conservatives feel that conservativism is such a great thing and yet when you look at the countries and places around the world that are conservative they are often have major problems (ie Saudi Arabia, Libya, Afghanistan[can't get much more conservative then that],etc.). Now, when you look at the liberal countries (most of Europe, Japan, S. Korea, etc.) they are in a hell of a better situation. Heck, the "conservatives" in many of those countries are the equivalent of many Democrats here. Even here in this country if you take away the more liberal areas (ie west coast, much the midwest, northeast) our country would be a shadow of itself. So where are these great examples of countries that conservatism produces?
The contention that I have with your question is that you are focusing only on socially conservative issues like strict religious adherance (at least that is what I assume if you are making comparisons to countries like Saudi Arabia) which isn't quite the platform of the GOP. As a conservative (and a religious agnostic) I am not a fan of the GOP social platform...so I naturally have an issue with comparisons to GOP political ideology to theocratic fascism. Further...Saudi Arabia actually has fairly leftist policies in terms of their redistribution. They use a large portion of their oil wealth for their social welfare and their universal healthcare systems. Further they take a tax which is one of the pillars of Islam that is another way to assist the poor. So your comparison to these countries is a little off base...you're painting some pretty broad strokes......Tantamount to me saying "how can you be a liberal when Kim Jong Un/Il/Il, Stalin, and Pol Pot were communists!!! How could you do this?!?!?!!" <--doesn't make sense does it?
Now...if you want to look at countries that most conservatives look at as examples of right wing fiscal policy in action...go to either the heritage foundation or another site and look for economic liberty indicies. You'll notice countries like Estonia, Poland, Hong Kong, Lithuania, and Latvia. These countries all share an intriguing parallel that they (except Hong Kong) were introduced to the "free" market in the 90's when communism fell in eastern Europe. These countries were economic graveyards after decades of fiscal mismanagement by their communist governments yet now they are thriving (google Baltic Tigers). All of these countries have very low marginal tax rates, low (by comparison) social welfare policies, and have seen years and years of sustained growth (save 08 of course).....far higher than the US average. These countries have instituted low, flat tax rates, closed loopholes in their receipts, and mitigated some of their more burdensome regulations to attract foreign investment and it has shown to be very profitable for them. They are working towards building a sustainable model which in theory...can't outgrow itself. The issue with a Nordic welfare state is that population growth has to remain static to keep payments and usage in line which it does fairly well in those countries...not the case in the US. The demographic that has seen the highest birth rates consequently are the ones with the lowest employment rates and the highest users of the "system." Ultimately though...we are living longer, and requiring more money to remain healthy as healthcare costs increase. Something HAS to break...and it's either taxes or benefits. The issue with taxes though...you can only raise them so many times before you either hurt growth or disincentivize labor. Would you have any interest in working if you only took home 35% of your pay? I wouldn't.
Now...that being said there have been some detriments to the baltic model. Income inequality has gone up a bit which is a detriment of decreased social welfare systems but that is a risk that I'm ok with taking if it means reduced unemployment and stable growth....which they've seen.
We are a country infested with idiots right now so if you want to call that a liberal country then you have a point. We weren't a liberal country prior to this infestation. McCarthey tried to stop the madness but was shouted down. The city on the hill has become an inner city hell hole. We will change it back for the sake of our children though.
Joe McCarthy was an alcoholic bully who gleefully led a witch hunt fueled with nothing but hate and fear. As soon as America had enough of him, his liver finally quit and he died. Good timing for him. Good timing for America, too.
I'm surprised you hold that particular grease spot in high regard. The Republican party couldn't shovel him over fast enough when he tipped over for the last time, and they did their best to wipe him out of the history books.
All of what I said is true; you just responded to a different point than what I actually said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost
There were plenty of inspirations and influences that are a part of the foundation of this nation, with Maga Carta perhaps leading the way.
Read what I said again. I never claimed there were not inspirations and influences, of course there were. I said "I see no need to seek inspiration from other countries." I say that because to me, this country and it's founding principles are the most inspirational on the planet.
The Magna Carta was needed because England was not "founded on the basis of individual liberty and limited government."
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost
Now, it is okay to say that you aren't left with even ONE nation that follows your ideas to the core. The ideas being Utopian in goals, and self-defeating in practice for the people. That you're left with having to choose from countries you'd rather not associate with.
As I've seen on the countless other threads like this one, I don't see any utopias of any sort.
As the only country founded on the already identified principles, I don't expect to find that many others in existence.
B.S. Scandinavia is a depressing dead-end group of countries and she was kissing the ground when she got back in the U.S.A. Certainly a dead-end for a non-Scandianvian who hasn't assimilated into the hivemind.
That's pretty funny. I met a gal who married a Canadian and lived up there for 5 years before she was able to pester him hard enough to move back here, her home town.
After 5 years of living here, she re-pestered him into moving back to Canada; home sweet home wasn't so sweet as she remembered it to be. Her husband did better here than she did.
Granted, Canada isn't Sweden, but it's a damn sight closer to Sweden in its' attitudes than the U.S. is. Both countries think the U.S. has gone crazy. I think both may be right.
Obama's the one who said he wanted to raise taxes on the rich as a matter of fairness even if it actually reduced revenues. So I'm afraid you're pointing your finger in the wrong direction when it comes to schoolyard-style fairness at the expense of genuine progress.
No, there are different kinds of fair. Liberals want fairness in opportunity. Conservatives want fairness in money. A good example is in education. I think people should have equal access to a good education. Conservatives probably like this in theory, but don't think anyone should have to pay for other people's education who doesn't want to.
You'll notice countries like Estonia, Poland,...Lithuania, and Latvia....These countries were economic graveyards...yet now they are thriving (google Baltic Tigers). All of these countries have very low marginal tax rates, low (by comparison) social welfare policies, and have seen years and years of sustained growth
If the Baltic States are the model for American conservatives, isn't it slightly a misleading one? As you rightly point out, these economies have grown very quickly because they started so far back. But just like the People's Republic, their high rates of economic growth can't be sustained forever - they'll catch up, then they'll plateau.
And just like the PRC, it's unlikely in the Baltic States that an informed population which has grown accustomed to an ever-improving standard of living, and which is also very familiar with the Western standard of social safety, will accept a safety net with big holes in it forever.
It seems to me that to suppose the Baltic peoples are a sort of "Lost Tribe of Israel", deeply committed to an ideologically pure laissez-faire liberal market, is to fundamentally misunderstand the recent history of that region.
HA, have you ever read a book? America rose to power because we invaded a giant, perfect and strategically located piece of land and used slaves to generate enormous wealth. We found huge mineral deposits and mined them and created more wealth. We grew a huge army and based on all of that in less than 300 years are where we are at. Trust me, we are still infants in the grand scheme of things. Our growing pains will work themselves out.
Well, I think you grossly misrepresent reality.
Look, America isn't the only country that invaded a strategically located piece of land and used slaves. Pretty much all of the America's had slavery, and yet, most of the America's never became anything like the United States.
Brazil for example imported about five times as many slaves as the United States(3 million vs 650,000). And Brazil is about the same size as the continental United States. And Brazil is loaded with natural resources. Yet Brazil, even today, has a GDP of 2.4 trillion vs our 15 trillion. And that has only been because of incredibly strong recent growth. If you go back 10 years, its GDP was only 500 billion.
The truth is, America didn't become powerful because of land or resources. There are many countries all over the world who have land and resources and who are poor. Nor did America become powerful because of slavery. The United States had a relatively small amount of slavery compared to most of the rest of the world. The United States only received about 6.5% of all slaves brought to the America's. And the United States did not become a major power until after slavery had ended.
What made America powerful, was industrialization in the late 1800's, combined with a very free-market economy and minimal government intervention. The countries that are developing rapidly today, almost invariably are liberalizing their markets. It has been through the free-market that countries have become prosperous. It has been through an expansion of trade, and especially free-trade, that people have become better off.
The problem America faces in recent years. Is that the model that the United States used for so long to create prosperity here, is finally beginning to be applied in other countries all over the world. And it is going to be impossible for the United States to remain comparatively rich, as this market liberalization, and international trade continues.
Regardless of what many Americans believe. If all other countries adopt the American model, then there is no reason to believe that America should be better off than any other country. Even Cuba is liberalizing their economy. Eventually America and Cuba will begin trading regularly again, and the whole experiment with communism will be over. China is going the same direction.
There is no reason to believe that America will remain more wealthy than China into the future.
The problem people have, is that economics affect culture. People have become "Americanized" effectively because we have been so comparably rich. We have been the exported of goods, entertainment, and technology. But in the future, if China reaches income parity with the United States, then Chinese culture could end up becoming dominant.
The same could be said for India, which has Bollywood, and will eventually become the worlds most populous country. There is no reason to believe that India won't end up with incredible influence on the world.
My point is, I think the United States of the past was far more successful than the United States of today, on a variety of levels. I think the path we are on will eventually weaken the United States both socially and economically. While other nations will continue to rise, and who will eventually surpass us.
There is really nothing about the United States right now, that really makes it unique. There is really nothing that gives the United States the right to be the most powerful country in the world. We have been the beneficiaries of the country our ancestors left us. And we are going to destroy it.
And in a lot of ways, I really can't wait till its destroyed. Sometimes I just want to give the liberals everything they want. Then at least this country will implode quickly. Watching it now is like a train wreck in slow motion. You see what is going to happen, but there is really nothing you can do to stop it.
I believe that the conservatives have lost the culture war. Because there isn't a strong enough intellectual foundation for supporting the America of the past. The America of the past has been demonized to such an extent, it is useless to even invoke its name. There is no America anymore, at least not in the United States. Conservatives have lost the debate... It won't be until the social and economic reality that are the results of the policies that liberals advocate come into fruition, that people will even wake up and realize that the old America wasn't so bad after all.
I say, let America die, so it can be reborn.
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