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Not a big surprise that you'd choose to ignore the credulity decades of legitimate government regulation of firearms lends to perspectives you don't like, and instead insert your own personal opinion as if it were reality.
And YOUR opinion has more credibility than mine? Just cuz? Lol....I don't care a whit if you agree with me, but, unlike you, I freely admit it is my opinion, and not a self appointed omnipotent and intractable law. My my aren't you just soooo enlightened. ROFLMAO
The term "well regulated" is often taken out of its true context. It does NOT mean that the government has the right to restrict and control the militia. It means that the militia needs to be properly equipped, proficient, and ready to assemble when needed at the community level. Arms and equipment were intended to be an individual responsibility. Service in the militia was and is not obligatory. Strictly volunteer. However, if one chose or chooses to serve, they are expected to provide their own arms and gear. Thus, "shall not be infringed" comes into play. The government does not regulate the militia. The people do, and regulation does NOT imply the power of restriction of arms is granted to the government. Quite the opposite.
This is all explained, quite simply, in the Pre-amble. The militia is a provision for the common defense, and its "regulation" ,thereof, is not a power granted to the government, but a responsibility of the people and the individuals comprising it.
As applied today, with certain weapons being capable of destroying entire citys, the 2A does not cover strategic weapons. The militia was never intended to be an offensive or strategic force, to be projected overseas. It is a defensive or in cadre force, for domestic protection on a limited scale. Large scale artilley, air power, armor and such is not practical for militia. However, personal small arms up to medium bore cannon are practical, as are explosives and anti personell and equipment devices, such as the Claymore. Stuff that is practical for small unit tactics fighting geurilla style. So, a case can be made for access to such things. Small arms are unquestionable. We the People are granted the right to have them, uninfringed by government. The government has no authority over the militia, that the militia does not, expressly, grant it, upon formation.
I could go on, at considerable length, here. But I think I made my point. The 2A was deliberated at considerable length, when it was adopted, and it still stnds today. We can ill afford to grant the government any more restrictive power over it. What they have been given, already, is far to much.
And now in the modern day, we have various law enforcement agencies at all levels of govt (local, state, and fed) for domestic protection and a powerful army for foreign aggression (or just to be the world's police). Guns in today ages are used for personal protection, hunting, and recreation. Right or wrong, that's how it has played out. Every armed uprising against the American govt has failed, and one instance came at GREAT human life. So this notion that the 2nd amendment is for the purpose of disposing tyrannical govt is just impotent.
All of which government can therefore establish laws allowing or prohibiting, where it is so empowered, as in the case of the Second Amendment placing the owning of arms in the context of a well-regulated militia.
Except the SCOTUS has interpreted the militia clause as a preamble. and the active clause to be "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed". Which makes a lot of sense given in the militia clause it's discussing the militia, and in the people clause it's discussing people. All militia are people, not all people are militia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU
No it doesn't. The right to bear arms is explicitly expressed in the context of a well-regulated militia, not an unorganized militia.
In your opinion, in reality there is no such legal ruling, indeed the only ruling is Heller and that explicitly states the militia clause is one purpose for why the right of the people to keep and bear arms should not be infringed (there's no ruling whether it's exclusive either, due to "sporting use" terms used in legislation it's clear that the common understanding is that it is not exclusive). Even should there be such a ruling there is no legal definition of what "well-regulated" constitutes, nor who regulates, therefore three guys who meet on a Saturday afternoon to drink some beers, tell each other some lies and watch a movie could in law be considered a "well regulated militia" given there is no legal definition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU
But you are bound by US and state laws.
But there can be laws that do so.
US laws are not the constitution, they depend on the constitution for legality, but are not of themselves part of the constitution, which is why they're called statutes. Indeed there could be laws that prevent me from forming a militia (there are not in my state), but once again there is no clause in the constitution that prevents me from doing so (you failed to get a cookie), which rebuts your argument that the constitution does not permit me to form a militia, the constitution neither permits me to form a Militia nor prevents me from doing so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU
Except of there are laws that say you do, laws that are, despite your claims to the contrary, constitutional.
There are some laws that require someone to ask permission, however as I stated earlier the foundation of US Law is proscriptive not prescriptive. This means that law actually forbids some activity, unless you have been given license to perform that activity, however barring such a law then all activities are permitted. If you cannot grok this then it's clear why you are having issues both arguing the points you're trying to make and getting such push back.
The CONS is a set of LAWs that stop the Govt from infringing on individuals.
Nothing in the cons is about groups of people. back at that time every male of sound body and mind was a part of the Militia and the law still stands on the books. That was from boys sometimes age 8 or so and up to men at any age where their body was still able.
You make it like the which came first the chicken or the egg.
I assure you the gun part came first as with out one you would have ineffective militia. The Govt was arming the Militia, and you had to buy and run your very own gin and the govt got no say in what that gun was.
Since the Militia was not military by nature the bus varied wildly in size shape and what sort of bullet it took. Back then it was typical that when you bought a gun you bought a bullet mold for that gun.
You arguments of this not being the 18th century anymore is moot. You argument about individuals not having a Right to bear Arms is just plain wrong.
The feds did away with money as legal tender a long time ago.... They broke the law that bound them to the CONS and haven't accounted yet for that act..
That alone could be reason enough for We the people to step in and take the govt back. We the people have been overly patient.
The Govt is pushing that patience now.
We the People don't care what the left says. If you make another gun law we the people will laugh at you for it and ignore you as we please.
I suggest you pack up your bags and leave the USA and never comeback. You are still Free to leave for the moment.
I wouldn't want to be you when We the people open the records to see who voted for the Democrats.
You were so hot to print the holders of gun permit holders and gun owners making it public info... We can and will do the same to the screaming left.
You have nothing..... You have 0 enforcement. Who the HELL do you think could come for the guns?
Are you still stupid enough to think a paper law trumps steel and lead? have you not yet learned Gin Free Zones are just Killing Zones, where your lefty left behind insane wackos can kill with total abandon?
Every last one of these school shooters so far has been a left behind wacko created for and by the left.
I can't wait for FEMA to round up all you screamers and put you in LABOR CAMPS.
I agree with some of your post, except when you go off and start your rant about the evil lefties, so much hate on display. Comment on the last two statements.
The Left created the killing in CT? Really? Two points, the sooter was mentally ill, or do you believe only Lefties can be mentally ill? And secondly, the mother he was living with and taught him his POV was a survivalist and while there are some that are Left leaning the vast majority are right leaners.
I bet you cannot but be carefull suggesting such "stuff" Karma has a way of using the evil wishes of people as what should befall those utter the evil wishes. Pssst, no one is going to rounded up and sent to FEMA camps, even most Lefties would not stand by and allow it and I know no military or law enforcement agencies that would even carry out such an illegal order. Ok back to your rant, but before that, think on this, if you were to tone it down when it came to labeling an entire group you obviously do not fully understand and attacking them and simply stated your point pro or con on the issue readings would be more likely to read and consider your message.
The CONS is a set of LAWs that stop the Govt from infringing on individuals.
Nothing in the cons is about groups of people. back at that time every male of sound body and mind was a part of the Militia and the law still stands on the books. That was from boys sometimes age 8 or so and up to men at any age where their body was still able.
You make it like the which came first the chicken or the egg.
I assure you the gun part came first as with out one you would have ineffective militia. The Govt was arming the Militia, and you had to buy and run your very own gin and the govt got no say in what that gun was.
Since the Militia was not military by nature the bus varied wildly in size shape and what sort of bullet it took. Back then it was typical that when you bought a gun you bought a bullet mold for that gun.
You arguments of this not being the 18th century anymore is moot. You argument about individuals not having a Right to bear Arms is just plain wrong.
The feds did away with money as legal tender a long time ago.... They broke the law that bound them to the CONS and haven't accounted yet for that act..
That alone could be reason enough for We the people to step in and take the govt back. We the people have been overly patient.
The Govt is pushing that patience now.
We the People don't care what the left says. If you make another gun law we the people will laugh at you for it and ignore you as we please.
I suggest you pack up your bags and leave the USA and never comeback. You are still Free to leave for the moment.
I wouldn't want to be you when We the people open the records to see who voted for the Democrats.
You were so hot to print the holders of gun permit holders and gun owners making it public info... We can and will do the same to the screaming left.
You have nothing..... You have 0 enforcement. Who the HELL do you think could come for the guns?
Are you still stupid enough to think a paper law trumps steel and lead? have you not yet learned Gin Free Zones are just Killing Zones, where your lefty left behind insane wackos can kill with total abandon?
Every last one of these school shooters so far has been a left behind wacko created for and by the left.
I can't wait for FEMA to round up all you screamers and put you in LABOR CAMPS.
Mmmmm FEMA at least provides good coffee....
But let's be honest here. You aren't made for the 21st century. Its okay buddy.
The CONS is a set of LAWs that stop the Govt from infringing on individuals.
Nothing in the cons is about groups of people. back at that time every male of sound body and mind was a part of the Militia and the law still stands on the books. That was from boys sometimes age 8 or so and up to men at any age where their body was still able.
You make it like the which came first the chicken or the egg.
I assure you the gun part came first as with out one you would have ineffective militia. The Govt was arming the Militia, and you had to buy and run your very own gin and the govt got no say in what that gun was.
Since the Militia was not military by nature the bus varied wildly in size shape and what sort of bullet it took. Back then it was typical that when you bought a gun you bought a bullet mold for that gun.
You arguments of this not being the 18th century anymore is moot. You argument about individuals not having a Right to bear Arms is just plain wrong.
The feds did away with money as legal tender a long time ago.... They broke the law that bound them to the CONS and haven't accounted yet for that act..
That alone could be reason enough for We the people to step in and take the govt back. We the people have been overly patient.
The Govt is pushing that patience now.
We the People don't care what the left says. If you make another gun law we the people will laugh at you for it and ignore you as we please.
I suggest you pack up your bags and leave the USA and never comeback. You are still Free to leave for the moment.
I wouldn't want to be you when We the people open the records to see who voted for the Democrats.
You were so hot to print the holders of gun permit holders and gun owners making it public info... We can and will do the same to the screaming left.
You have nothing..... You have 0 enforcement. Who the HELL do you think could come for the guns?
Are you still stupid enough to think a paper law trumps steel and lead? have you not yet learned Gin Free Zones are just Killing Zones, where your lefty left behind insane wackos can kill with total abandon?
Every last one of these school shooters so far has been a left behind wacko created for and by the left.
I can't wait for FEMA to round up all you screamers and put you in LABOR CAMPS.
Sounds like you don't like freedom. Sounds like you want an America where only those who believe what you believe are allowed.....
.....not really helping your case with gun rights here..... Kinda sound like you been off you're meds or you are just an angry, angry, angry man with a bunch of guns.
And now in the modern day, we have various law enforcement agencies at all levels of govt (local, state, and fed) for domestic protection and a powerful army for foreign aggression (or just to be the world's police). Guns in today ages are used for personal protection, hunting, and recreation. Right or wrong, that's how it has played out. Every armed uprising against the American govt has failed, and one instance came at GREAT human life. So this notion that the 2nd amendment is for the purpose of disposing tyrannical govt is just impotent.
Spoken like someone who's never been anywhere near a battlefield other than watching CNN.
If you ask someone who has been or is in the military you'll find that street combat in the United States is by far the most dangerous thing imaginable. The US military isn't going to carpet bomb 100% of the population for an "uprising" and given that there are millions and millions more US citizens with guns than there are US soldiers in all branches combined with all police and other law enforcement agencies. How are you going to fight against millions of citizens mixed in with millions of others who aren't fighting against you?
That doesn't even take into account the majority of the military members who just flat out won't fight against their own people.
And now in the modern day, we have various law enforcement agencies at all levels of govt (local, state, and fed) for domestic protection and a powerful army for foreign aggression (or just to be the world's police). Guns in today ages are used for personal protection, hunting, and recreation. Right or wrong, that's how it has played out. Every armed uprising against the American govt has failed, and one instance came at GREAT human life. So this notion that the 2nd amendment is for the purpose of disposing tyrannical govt is just impotent.
I didn't get into the aspects of revolt against our government so much. Not at all actually. Though I do believe keeping our government honest IS part of the intent of the 2A, it is a small part. It is my interpretation, that the militia is a reserve force, to deploy and protect communities, when the government cannot. That, and to aid regular forces, in the event of extenuating circumstances. Many such circumstances spring to mind, such as control of looters and other bad guys after a natural disaster, foreign invasion, widespread criminal mischief, of a plethora of types, wherever extra, armed, manpower, is needed. This need not even be in a direct, combat, role, but, being armed and able to defend themselves, while performing duties, is a plus. Then regular forces need not have to sap manpower to send with them.
Just because the agencies you mention are in place, does not mean they will always have sufficient personell to be truly effective. Enter the militia. You are thinking far to narrowly. I believe the OP is, as well. The militia is not a tool of armed revolt. It is an arm of the domestic common defense.
Spoken like someone who's never been anywhere near a battlefield other than watching CNN.
If you ask someone who has been or is in the military you'll find that street combat in the United States is by far the most dangerous thing imaginable. The US military isn't going to carpet bomb 100% of the population for an "uprising" and given that there are millions and millions more US citizens with guns than there are US soldiers in all branches combined with all police and other law enforcement agencies. How are you going to fight against millions of citizens mixed in with millions of others who aren't fighting against you?
That doesn't even take into account the majority of the military members who just flat out won't fight against their own people.
....ok. Was there a point in there?
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