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bad schools and good schools all exist under the same system, often in the same district.
the inequality arises not in the schools themselves (which are just buildings filled with teachers), or the systems (which are collections of schools) , but in the students entering the schools.
a good school district is synonymous with the quality of parents and children attending it. whether the people complaining are aware of this, or not, is unclear and unimportant.
In a more equal system there is little difference in the quality between different schools. It used to be like that here but lately its been getting more unequal in the big cities since they expanded school choice, but for the main part parents don't worry about which school their child goes to because it isn't so unequal. It seems to be completely different in the US from what I've heard.
The inequality absolutely does arise from the schools themselves (though of course the quality of students effect it too), some schools have better teachers and some have worse (and better teachers generally are drawn to better schools which reinforces this)
I absolutely agree. I think the US could do amazingly well in the future if it would really invest in its education system.
The USA spends by far more money on education than other countries do. Throwing more money at the problem won't solve it. Unfortunately it's not all always about money, we put far too much faith in money for everything and it isn't the only factor.
The USA spends by far more money on education than other countries do. Throwing more money at the problem won't solve it. Unfortunately it's not all always about money, we put far too much faith in money for everything and it isn't the only factor.
I don't mean money necessarily, but investing in high quality teachers, in good ideas that have been tried and tested in other countries and shown to work, in positive attitudes towards education and teachers (I hear so much bad things said about teachers - they ought to be respected more because they are doing an extremely important job) and considering carefully the best way to allocate the money thats already being spent rather than spending more.
I don't mean money necessarily, but investing in high quality teachers, in good ideas that have been tried and tested in other countries and shown to work, in positive attitudes towards education and teachers (I hear so much bad things said about teachers - they ought to be respected more because they are doing an extremely important job) and considering carefully the best way to allocate the money thats already being spent rather than spending more.
I agree --- it's time to ditch the teachers unions and start getting back to the basics. The teachers in the USA do not deserve respect with these results however. Get some teachers that deserve respect.
It's not just the teachers however, the parents are not preparing their children for school, many won't allow their children to even learn English. There's a recent case in Texas where the children refuse to speak English and the teacher was put on leave for not accommodating them in their own language.
Many don't. I guess they would if we were inching up but we are falling down.
Look at PISA like a global SAT.
And if students from MA (which has the best US education record) didn't participate then we might have been lower then #36.
Most Americans do scoff this off every 3 years because we do worse with each PISA.
Instead they should worry about it. The selection process is the same in all countries.
No matter which way you look at it we don't look good.
If we're doing "the same" as NCES Commissioner stated then there are countries surpassing us.
We've gone from #24 to #36 in less than 10 years.
I only stated I wouldn't take this seriously based on such a small sampling of American students in particular.
There are tens of millions of students in school in this country and I just don't see (maybe it is my lack of mathematical training obtained in our country's public education system) how such a small sample can make conclusive results on the whole educational philosophy of this country in particular.
How many students were tested in other countries? Were they the same percentage of 15 year olds in those countries as ours?
I am not sure, and due to that I don't take this to be THE proof that our educational system is below average on the world stage. Also, area only public school students sampled or "international" or private schools sampled as well? Maybe this is all answered on the website.
And FWIW, I do think we need a ton of reform in our schools. I also think our country, including the educational system is rife with prejudicial, stereotypical views of all students.
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that expectations are now lower in America educationally. I tend to agree with this especially as it relates to minority youth. The whole educational system needs to have HIGH expectations of ALL students to meet a minimum standard. Exceeding that standard should be highly praise worthy, say some sort of national ball for the top 5% academically at each high school in the country. Children who do not meet standards should be required to receive additional schooling for free (including all summer, Saturday school, and even extended tutoring/homework sessions after school). That will ensure our kids know the basic material and it has nothing to do with demographics. If kids misbehave, they should be kicked out and have to wait a particular amount of time to come back to school.
And in this regard I even think that many special education students should be held to similar standards, especially all these "new" diagnoses such as ADD or ADHD, these kids have no disabilities that cause them not to be able to learn at a normal level and they should receive similar instruction. I have a mildly autistic nephew who has received a lot of special services (he couldn't even talk only 4 years ago) and he is now on target educationally yet he is still in a "special" school and not mainstreamed. Primarily because his mother has not taken the steps that she needs to take to get his IEP changed and mainstream him. The school, of course, wants to keep him there because they receive more money for him being in his seat than if he were not, so they have not initiated the process to move him even though they have recommended that he go mainstream. Basically, it is setting him up for academic failure. In 7 years (he is 8) he may be at a school and tested for this exam or another and compared to kids in other countries too but he currently has a much lower reading level, due to being behind linguistically and having a poor mother (in that she is a bad mother IMO). If we adopted the minimum standards, which is why I somewhat support Common Core, and if we, as a country were serious about educating ALL children to that minimum standard, then my nephew would have been mainstreamed as recommended and put into a school where he would have to do year round learning with a longer day and Saturday school so that it will be assured that by the time he was 15, he'd at least meet the average score of any test he took since, even with his disability, he is capable of learning scholastic material.
I only stated I wouldn't take this seriously based on such a small sampling of American students in particular.
There are tens of millions of students in school in this country and I just don't see (maybe it is my lack of mathematical training obtained in our country's public education system) how such a small sample can make conclusive results on the whole educational philosophy of this country in particular.
How many students were tested in other countries? Were they the same percentage of 15 year olds in those countries as ours?
I am not sure, and due to that I don't take this to be THE proof that our educational system is below average on the world stage. Also, area only public school students sampled or "international" or private schools sampled as well? Maybe this is all answered on the website.
And FWIW, I do think we need a ton of reform in our schools. I also think our country, including the educational system is rife with prejudicial, stereotypical views of all students.
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that expectations are now lower in America educationally. I tend to agree with this especially as it relates to minority youth. The whole educational system needs to have HIGH expectations of ALL students to meet a minimum standard. Exceeding that standard should be highly praise worthy, say some sort of national ball for the top 5% academically at each high school in the country. Children who do not meet standards should be required to receive additional schooling for free (including all summer, Saturday school, and even extended tutoring/homework sessions after school). That will ensure our kids know the basic material and it has nothing to do with demographics. If kids misbehave, they should be kicked out and have to wait a particular amount of time to come back to school.
And in this regard I even think that many special education students should be held to similar standards, especially all these "new" diagnoses such as ADD or ADHD, these kids have no disabilities that cause them not to be able to learn at a normal level and they should receive similar instruction. I have a mildly autistic nephew who has received a lot of special services (he couldn't even talk only 4 years ago) and he is now on target educationally yet he is still in a "special" school and not mainstreamed. Primarily because his mother has not taken the steps that she needs to take to get his IEP changed and mainstream him. The school, of course, wants to keep him there because they receive more money for him being in his seat than if he were not, so they have not initiated the process to move him even though they have recommended that he go mainstream. Basically, it is setting him up for academic failure. In 7 years (he is 8) he may be at a school and tested for this exam or another and compared to kids in other countries too but he currently has a much lower reading level, due to being behind linguistically and having a poor mother (in that she is a bad mother IMO). If we adopted the minimum standards, which is why I somewhat support Common Core, and if we, as a country were serious about educating ALL children to that minimum standard, then my nephew would have been mainstreamed as recommended and put into a school where he would have to do year round learning with a longer day and Saturday school so that it will be assured that by the time he was 15, he'd at least meet the average score of any test he took since, even with his disability, he is capable of learning scholastic material.
The standings are the same with TMSS tests as well.
Even if we say we're stagnant the other countries are not sitting there stagnant as well.
They are surpassing us.
The tests are no harder than our standardized testing.
One thing that is different is that there are fill in the blanks where we do very poorly.
All our tests are multiple choice.
The problem is too much testing and rote learning. They learn what they need for a test and then forget it. Active learning and critical thinking are the best ways to learn.
The standings are the same with TMSS tests as well.
Even if we say we're stagnant the other countries are not sitting there stagnant as well.
They are surpassing us.
The tests are no harder than our standardized testing.
One thing that is different is that there are fill in the blanks where we do very poorly.
All our tests are multiple choice.
Honestly, I personally think too much emphasis is put on standardized testing. Even though I take issue with a lot going on in our educational system. Improving on these tests really IMO do not give the whole picture regarding education in any of the countries sampled.
I did look further into the PISA website and it did state that both private and public schools are included in the sample. But it did not break out what percentage of private or public schools are used in each sample country so for all intents and purposes, this test could be utilizing the private school results from other countries versus American and other countries' public schools (ps: I am aware that private schools are rare in some European countries, especially in Finland, which rates very high on these test and I believe that is due to their standardization of education there moreso than tracking). But China in particular has a lot of private "international" schools as do other Asian nations, like Vietnam. I have a former classmate who is an international school teacher in Vietnam right now. I cannot imagine Vietnam not utilizing a larger pool of their "international" school students versus public. Whereas I can see the opposite occurring here in the US. Like I stated earlier, I do think that the western/first world countries are better at educating students than this country, in particular European countries and Canada.
I am not all that familiar with TMSS either and I also don't remember taking a TMSS tests.
I will do some digging on them another time. My son's school also has not taken a TMSS test. He is in 6th grade and we are made aware of all the testing they do. In the past they have done the CRCT, ITBS, NWEA/MAP, and some sort of IQ test and another that a university created that I can't remember the name of.
I only stated I wouldn't take this seriously based on such a small sampling of American students in particular.
There are tens of millions of students in school in this country and I just don't see (maybe it is my lack of mathematical training obtained in our country's public education system) how such a small sample can make conclusive results on the whole educational philosophy of this country in particular.
How many students were tested in other countries? Were they the same percentage of 15 year olds in those countries as ours?
I am not sure, and due to that I don't take this to be THE proof that our educational system is below average on the world stage. Also, area only public school students sampled or "international" or private schools sampled as well? Maybe this is all answered on the website.
And FWIW, I do think we need a ton of reform in our schools. I also think our country, including the educational system is rife with prejudicial, stereotypical views of all students.
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that expectations are now lower in America educationally. I tend to agree with this especially as it relates to minority youth. The whole educational system needs to have HIGH expectations of ALL students to meet a minimum standard. Exceeding that standard should be highly praise worthy, say some sort of national ball for the top 5% academically at each high school in the country. Children who do not meet standards should be required to receive additional schooling for free (including all summer, Saturday school, and even extended tutoring/homework sessions after school). That will ensure our kids know the basic material and it has nothing to do with demographics. If kids misbehave, they should be kicked out and have to wait a particular amount of time to come back to school.
And in this regard I even think that many special education students should be held to similar standards, especially all these "new" diagnoses such as ADD or ADHD, these kids have no disabilities that cause them not to be able to learn at a normal level and they should receive similar instruction. I have a mildly autistic nephew who has received a lot of special services (he couldn't even talk only 4 years ago) and he is now on target educationally yet he is still in a "special" school and not mainstreamed. Primarily because his mother has not taken the steps that she needs to take to get his IEP changed and mainstream him. The school, of course, wants to keep him there because they receive more money for him being in his seat than if he were not, so they have not initiated the process to move him even though they have recommended that he go mainstream. Basically, it is setting him up for academic failure. In 7 years (he is 8) he may be at a school and tested for this exam or another and compared to kids in other countries too but he currently has a much lower reading level, due to being behind linguistically and having a poor mother (in that she is a bad mother IMO). If we adopted the minimum standards, which is why I somewhat support Common Core, and if we, as a country were serious about educating ALL children to that minimum standard, then my nephew would have been mainstreamed as recommended and put into a school where he would have to do year round learning with a longer day and Saturday school so that it will be assured that by the time he was 15, he'd at least meet the average score of any test he took since, even with his disability, he is capable of learning scholastic material.
I would suspect far more children in American schools are being drugged by the system so they will sit and behave no matter how dull the classroom has become than in other countries.
And the rate of kids being diagnosed with ADD and ADHD as well as autism is skyrocketing. In many case the kids are just bored out of their minds because the teachers now teach to the lower third of the class.
Before kids are given speed for these new disorders, there should be more creative approaches to educating kids who may be bored and restless.
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