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I don’t believe either of us are arguing the necessity of reparations at this point. We simply have different perspectives on how they are to be delivered.
What the world are you talking about? How do you tell the people who built this country, that we should be grateful to live here? This the kind of thinking that makes absolutely no sense, and overall won't be left unchallenged. For far too long, we've been treated like perpetual outsiders, as if America is not our home. Go back to Africa? My family's bones are buried here. My people were here before well over 90% of white America's families ever hopped over to this country. We have more rights to this place than anyone aside from Native Americans, and we are the only non-immigrant group.
Like I said of the ADOS movement, this the kind of talk that will no longer be left unchallenged. Can you imagine the ignorance of being told you don't belong to a place you created? Oh, we are putting our foot down in claiming this place. We are also claiming our inheritance.
So the majority of white Americans have ancestors who came here after slavery ended. Yet you feel its up to them to pay you reparations??? Should Italian Americans get reparations for all the discrimination they faced? If someone is both white and black do they "repay" themself?
So the majority of white Americans have ancestors who came here after slavery ended. Yet you feel its up to them to pay you reparations??? Should Italian Americans get reparations for all the discrimination they faced? If someone is both white and black do they "repay" themself?
Whether reparations should be granted is debatable, but why is it you and others can't grasp or acknowledge the obvious difference between the institution of slavery and post-slavery treatment for black people vs. the discrimination/prejudice against numerous ethnic and religious groups of non-black people
So the majority of white Americans have ancestors who came here after slavery ended. Yet you feel its up to them to pay you reparations??? Should Italian Americans get reparations for all the discrimination they faced? If someone is both white and black do they "repay" themself?
We're going to let Italian Americans handle their own business. If they feel like they got a case on this country, let them make it. We're making ours.
So the majority of white Americans have ancestors who came here after slavery ended. Yet you feel its up to them to pay you reparations??? Should Italian Americans get reparations for all the discrimination they faced? If someone is both white and black do they "repay" themself?
According to Ados101.com this is the criteria:
"Using the standards set out in the paper by Prof. Darity and Prof. Frank, “The Economics of Reparations,” the criteria for eligibility would be:
1.An individual would have to provide reasonable documentation of at least one ancestor enslaved in the United States and
2.They would need to demonstrate they have identified as black, African American, Colored, or Negro on established legal documents for at least 10 years prior to the onset of the program
Note: In addition we would add that at least one grandparent fulfills both prongs of the criteria if a person is biracial.
Effectively this would limit reparations solely to those people who have lineage that ties them both to slavery in the United States, and the subsequent era of Jim Crow. Any black immigrant who came to the United States voluntarilyafter slavery would not be eligible to receive reparations. This distinction is critical since a sizeable number of black immigrants in fact arrived in the U.S. following black America’s most historically significant and economically detrimental periods that occurred prior to the Civil Rights movement."
I don’t believe either of us are arguing the necessity of reparations at this point. We simply have different perspectives on how they are to be delivered.
ADOS to me kinda goes against the Pan African movement that was established many moons ago.
That’s all I’ll say about it. Not gonna answer the questions about what I think about reparations, etc. Not comfortable discussing that in the company of non blacks.
There is so much wrong in what you're saying. Understand the white middle class was created directly through FDR's New Deal, FHA loans, and the GI Bill. I made mention of the land grants that paved a way for white Europeans to come here and make a life for themselves. In fact, Jeff Bezos' family is a great example of that, which of course he used his family's wealth to create Amazon. Before all these programs, white people were poor as dirt. Those who were rich, got that way due to cheap labor. (And of course we know what slavery did for America and it's wealthy overall)
Just take it back to the Great Depression for a minute. Folks were jumping out of windows and waiting in bread lines. It was FDR that came in and corrected that. His programs and laws created white wealth, and it was these same programs that black Americans were shut out of as a group. Very few black people got some of the land grants, which led to the creation of Black Wall Street in Tulsa Oklahoma. (Which white folk burnt to a crisp) So I don't understand why you say white people didn't get rich from government. I gave you the example of how Fred Trump took advantage of the creation of the FHA. I told you how Warren Buffett said had he been born somewhere else or born black, he wouldn't have had the chances he had. The Trumps, Buffett, Bezos, all were created by government, and so have white America itself. It also aided Asian Americans, along with the help of their former country's governments. (China, India, etc.) All groups were aided, except us. You must understand that.
When it comes to the middle class, most black people are not that at all. In terms of income, a family of three has to have annual income of $45,000-$135,000 to be considered middle class. I already know the median income of Black America is around $39,000. That right there let's you know more than half of all black families, are below middle class. (And we certainly have a lot of families with more than one kid) The median for white families is over $60,000. So more than half of them are solidly middle class, or at least according to what the government deems as having a middle class income. Ultimately, a lot of your arguments just aren't based on data. It's more your personal feelings than anything else. I'm on record of saying as individuals, we should do everything we can to make it. Invest if you can, save where you can. Strive, get an education, and all that good stuff. Yet as a group of people, those things will not lift us up because of our legacy. Even if you didn't have our legacy, even for white folks, it wouldn't work because I've clearly shown how government helped them. If it wasn't for FDR, white Americans would still be jumping out of windows and waiting in bread lines.
I just find it amazing you give white Americans credit for doing things without government. That is why you keep saying I have an inferiority complex, because you believe everyone else made their wealth on their own. I'm telling you that did not happen. Not even close. If that be true, then all I'm saying is I want the government to do for me, what it did for everyone else. That's not inferiority. I call that standing up for yourself.
1 - black people also were allowed to participate in "programs" for land in the 1800s after slavery ended and prior to slavery ending. My own family members were l and owners in the 19th century (both formerly enslaved lines and totally free lines).
2 - on FDR just like those programs "helped" whites, they also helped blacks acquire a middle class. And FWIW a majority of whites were middle class income-wise prior to the Depression/FDR. Most blacks were not. Our ascent into the middle class started with FDR and the activism of labor protestors like A. Phillip Randolph who threatened and lobbied the government to not be discriminated against in those programs (their actions is what caused the creation of "affirmative action" and that is when black Americans started voting for Democrats contrary to what many conservatives like to say about the 1960s and "welfare" et.al). Social and institutional apartheid prevented more black people from acquiring a middle class status, and especially so in the labor market (which is the case today I will add) whereas private sector employers refused to pay blacks higher wages or to let them get certain jobs. Private sector also was the main factor in preventing black people from purchasing homes in nicer areas with the GI Bill them and the government who created redlining and relegated a significant amount of our demographic into poverty for 50+ years - and again, this is why I don't agree with depending on government to do anything positive for us as a group. The history of the 20th century shows that this has never been the case and especially not for us specifically.
3 - Black Wall Street in Tulsa was not unique (I k now I've mentioned this to you before as well). Every urban area with a significant black population had a black commercial corridor and there were many black banks/credit unions, insurance companies, etc. Those existed because of private sector discrimination (i.e. white supremacy ideology) which made the mainstream private sector (white) not want to provide services to blacks. Nearly all of them were demolished by the government that you believe will "help" us via "Urban Renewal" programs, which many older black people I know in various cities not refer to as "Urban Destruction of black neighborhoods/businesses."
4 - My main focus in this discussion with you is that black people can help ourselves without the government. Do you not believe we can? If not, why do you believe that? You should really investigate this mindset of yours if you don't believe we can.
5 - Government programs in this country did not only benefit whites - usually programs that blacks advocated for were/have been expanded to include "All Americans" (such as housing, employment protections, affirmative actions, etc. - none of these are "black only" no matter what many weird conservatives like to state. White in and of itself is a "protected class." I know because I've worked in HR and had whites try to accuse our company of discrimination against them using these laws because they were/are white. In a couple instances, they were valid as well - that region was predominantly black in regards to management/executives). This will be done again with any government run/sponsored "reparations" program. It will be opened up to whites and you will still be complaining. Whenever there is a government program, it seeks to benefit "the public" and not a specific segment of the population. If you want to help a specific segment of the black population, you need to do it from a "private" or independent of government organization and not via the government itself.
6 - Politicians will tell you anything to vote for them. On the flip side - other politicians will use hot button issues of their opponents supporters in order to get those supporters not to support said opponent. IMO that is what ADOS is doing. Getting you to b**ch and complain and subsequently not support any Democratic candidate so that Trump can win the election. Again, once 2020 comes around, I doubt they will be vocal online anymore, similar to various BLM persons who are no longer active from 2016 trying to get black people not to vote.
The reason why majority of black families are below the poverty line is that 70 percent of all black women in America are single mothers. Having a shamika who is a college educated woman who works as a health care technician living outside of NYC making a salary is 70k a year will not go far if she has to feed her 3 kids Tyrone, starasia and Quan. Unless the state intervenes and forces child support on the ex boyfriend or husband.
Most black families do not lie below the poverty line.
Also I have a sister who is a health care technician in Ohio and she doesn't make 70k per year, but she also is not poverty stricken. She has one child who is not named the sterotypical stuff you mentioned above .
She also doesn't get child support (interestingly, must be a family trait but same as I think about "government" reparations, she just says F her child's father, she is not going to run around trying to get his money. She has told the state about him and there is a child support order but she doesn't get anything. She figures she'll press it when her daughter is about to graduate high school and use that money to give her daughter something to live off of while she is at school). My sister lives with her other sister and they have a two adult/parent household for both their children because of that (total of 3 children).
Family structure of black families does impact statistics but when you look at actual households oftentimes they don't add up to reality, which is why it is not a good idea to base your entire view of black income or wealth on compiled statistics. My sister and step sister living together actually has them having a combined income that is well above the median of our area and even the US, but they are not counted statistically in regards to "household income" as a combined household because they file taxes as separate households. The media income where we live is about $38,000. My little sister makes about that with her full time job and a part time job. My step sister who she lives with, makes the same. Both of them though compared to the national median alone make well below the USA median of about $59,000. Together though, they make over it. They share expenses and watch each other's kids and so don't have daycare fees either. Oftentimes people overlook the fact that black families usually have much more support in their homes/communities than other single parents. However, they will also play the system like other folks as I'm sure (haven't asked her but she is no dummy) that my sister files "head of household" so she can get a fat "tax refund" in the winter lol. Both her and the step sister get a pretty large tax refund due to them making less than $46k individually with children. They wouldn't get that money if they filed together as they would not qualify for EITC.
1 - black people also were allowed to participate in "programs" for land in the 1800s after slavery ended and prior to slavery ending. My own family members were l and owners in the 19th century (both formerly enslaved lines and totally free lines).
2 - on FDR just like those programs "helped" whites, they also helped blacks acquire a middle class. And FWIW a majority of whites were middle class income-wise prior to the Depression/FDR. Most blacks were not. Our ascent into the middle class started with FDR and the activism of labor protestors like A. Phillip Randolph who threatened and lobbied the government to not be discriminated against in those programs (their actions is what caused the creation of "affirmative action" and that is when black Americans started voting for Democrats contrary to what many conservatives like to say about the 1960s and "welfare" et.al). Social and institutional apartheid prevented more black people from acquiring a middle class status, and especially so in the labor market (which is the case today I will add) whereas private sector employers refused to pay blacks higher wages or to let them get certain jobs. Private sector also was the main factor in preventing black people from purchasing homes in nicer areas with the GI Bill them and the government who created redlining and relegated a significant amount of our demographic into poverty for 50+ years - and again, this is why I don't agree with depending on government to do anything positive for us as a group. The history of the 20th century shows that this has never been the case and especially not for us specifically.
3 - Black Wall Street in Tulsa was not unique (I k now I've mentioned this to you before as well). Every urban area with a significant black population had a black commercial corridor and there were many black banks/credit unions, insurance companies, etc. Those existed because of private sector discrimination (i.e. white supremacy ideology) which made the mainstream private sector (white) not want to provide services to blacks. Nearly all of them were demolished by the government that you believe will "help" us via "Urban Renewal" programs, which many older black people I know in various cities not refer to as "Urban Destruction of black neighborhoods/businesses."
4 - My main focus in this discussion with you is that black people can help ourselves without the government. Do you not believe we can? If not, why do you believe that? You should really investigate this mindset of yours if you don't believe we can.
5 - Government programs in this country did not only benefit whites - usually programs that blacks advocated for were/have been expanded to include "All Americans" (such as housing, employment protections, affirmative actions, etc. - none of these are "black only" no matter what many weird conservatives like to state. White in and of itself is a "protected class." I know because I've worked in HR and had whites try to accuse our company of discrimination against them using these laws because they were/are white. In a couple instances, they were valid as well - that region was predominantly black in regards to management/executives). This will be done again with any government run/sponsored "reparations" program. It will be opened up to whites and you will still be complaining. Whenever there is a government program, it seeks to benefit "the public" and not a specific segment of the population. If you want to help a specific segment of the black population, you need to do it from a "private" or independent of government organization and not via the government itself.
6 - Politicians will tell you anything to vote for them. On the flip side - other politicians will use hot button issues of their opponents supporters in order to get those supporters not to support said opponent. IMO that is what ADOS is doing. Getting you to b**ch and complain and subsequently not support any Democratic candidate so that Trump can win the election. Again, once 2020 comes around, I doubt they will be vocal online anymore, similar to various BLM persons who are no longer active from 2016 trying to get black people not to vote.
1. Yeah, some were able to get land grants. "Some" is the key word. Compared to the the total population of black people, it was a very small percentage. Also let's not forget the terrorism they faced on those lands. The killing and stealing of property. The ways local and state governments wrote laws that made it possible to buy land from one descendant of a black landowner, and wind up selling all the land for huge profits, including the land that belonged to other descendants. This is a loophole in Heirs property, that exists mostly in the south.
Mostly white Americans benefited from homestead acts and land grants. We're talking well over 90% of these homesteads went to them. For black people who were able to get them, they couldn't use it as white America could. They were killed, they were abused. Reading your words, it comes across as a defense against the idea that black people were wronged in this country. As if saying, "Black people didn't have it that bad" or "We had chances to build to". Your arguments would go against the need for reparations.
2. Thanks to those homesteads and other government programs, there was some affluence among white America before the Great Depression. And just like afterward, government lifted white people up again, and to greater heights. During FDR's politics, 65%-70% of all black workers in this nation were shut out of the New Deal due to Southern politicians. They made it where domestic workers couldn't take part. (Sharecroppers, maids, etc)
3. Of course I highlight Tulsa as an example of black people who did benefit from land grants. Yet in the end, we saw what happened to it, and ultimately what has been happening to black Americans our entire time in this country. Even the few who benefited from those programs, still suffered.
4. This is why you keep asking me this question. As though everyone else did it by themselves, why not black people? They didn't do it by themselves. They also don't have our history and current day place at the bottom of our American caste system. No I don't believe we can come up without government help because, for one, we have no protection. Even if we built our own private sectors from scratch, which would be the very first time anyone has ever done such a thing in the history of this country, perhaps the world, white capitalism and our government will burn it all down to the ground. You say history shows that government never helped us before, but I say to you that same history tells us they will attack anything we manage to build, and burn it to the ground.
5. By definition, reparations is specific to black Americans. In fact, that is the whole reason for the ADOS distinction. People clown us for coming up with a term that sets us apart from everybody, including other black people, but that's the point of reparations. So this program is specific to us, unlike every other one of the past. But here again, Black Wall Street was private and independent for the most part. (Other than how it began) Look what happened to it. The same thing will happen without government protections. Plus it is our wealth the government has. There's no need to build anything when it is right there in our face. The trillions in wealth in resources. That's not something we have to strive for, it's ours now.
6. We are here to stay. All we are doing is trying to direct black America to vote for an agenda and policy, rather than a politician.
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