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You’re willing to give up a lot of control people should have over their bodies all because of measles. I’m glad everyone is not so extreme. I’m really glad that the Bill in my state didn’t pass.
It will in the future if things continue to go the way they are. Militant anti vaxxers are (fortunately) few and far between. Most are the light weight garden variety that cave at the first threat of an actual disease in proximity to their kid. When the first US kid dies of measles there will probably be a vaccine shortage due to parents who are lightly anti vax scrambling over each other to get their kids vaccinated first.
If you wish to live in a society , then you abide by the common laws
vaccinations should be mandated.
not getting vaccinated is endangering your fellow member of society
So, we should be mandating a substance we inject into peoples bodies that claim to prevent disease part of the time but also comes with complications and injury for some people?
Wow!
I bet you miss Mr. Mandate Obama. Where the solution to America's lack of expensive medical care is to force people who can't afford it to purchase it or be fined. Scary logic.
To be willing to accept collateral damage in order to see your mission through is barbaric. Experimenting on humans should be banned, not mandated.
These mandates do not compare to those willing to take a risk for science. Being forced to take a risk for science by the government forcing people to ingest a substance they claim is for the common good is something I'd only like to see in the movies, not my reality.
If the logic is that it saves others and that's good enough I shudder to think what else we will apply this logic too. I'm not into parent governments, they don't have a good track record.
Look what happened to the Polio vaccine when they first used it.
Then AIDS... But a small number of scientists, journalists, and AIDS activists are dissatisfied with this explanation. They argue that the epidemic began because an otherwise largely forgotten experimental polio vaccine that was widely tested in Africa during the late 1950s was contaminated with SIVcpz. This controversial theory has drawn attacks from mainstream researchers, some of whom have brought forth new data that, they say, convincingly refutes it. In turn, the attacks have only fueled the determination of the polio-vaccine adherents to prove their point, and their theory has won increasing attention from both the public and the scientific community.https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...f-aids/306490/
Sadly, we probably will never find out if the Polio vaccine was to blame because of this.
The idea that CHAT sparked the AIDS epidemic, he contends, scares Beatrice Hahn and other phylogeneticists because it undermines their work. Vaccine makers and advocates fear that the public could lose faith in vaccines, and the governments that supported the CHAT trials are loath to be held responsible for the epidemic. As for scientists who might be tempted to pursue the theory, he says, they worry that their colleagues might ostracize them for stepping out of line and that their funding could suffer.
You see the science we trust so much is bought. True research doesn't happen with a price tag bias. Science relies on funding and if the most funding is coming from pharma then guess where their findings will lean.
Examples:
Yep. Sugar contributes to coronary artery disease, more than we have been led to believe.
Reports had linked both dietary sugar and dietary fat to heart disease as early as the mid-50s; by 1960 we knew that low-fat diets high in sugars still resulted in high cholesterol levels. So in 1964, the director of the SRF proposed that the group “embark on a major program” to dispute the data as well as any “negative attitudes toward sugar.” They found a group of Harvard nutrition scientists who would take their money, and started making plans.
Complete with a codename, Project 226 was designed to protect the interests of the sugar industry by “recapturing” the 20% of American calorie intake they expected to lose once this whole sugar-isn’t-great-for-your-heart thing percolated through into public awareness. It resulted in a two-part review published in the prestigious and influential New England Journal of Medicine, which hand-waved away huge swathes of research pointing out the risks of dietary sugar.https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...ening-againThe authors went to absurd lengths to discount studies that didn’t tell the story the Sugar Research Foundation wanted to tell. For example, to get the results they wanted, they had to throw out all the studies done on animals, because not a single animal study supported the conclusion they wanted. But after they finished their work, they reported that epidemiological studies showed a positive association between high dietary sugar consumption and better heart disease outcomes. The review concluded that there was “no doubt” that the only way to avoid heart disease was to reduce saturated fat.
IT’S NO SECRET that the pharmaceutical industry wields big influence over doctors who prescribe painkillers. But the data is mounting on the extent of that relationship and the many thousands of lives it has cost.
This week came new revelations that the family that owned a major drug firm spent years misleading doctors and patients about the dangers of OxyContin in the early 2000s. The aggressive promotion of that one painkiller helped fuel the opioid crisis that killed more than 40,000 Americans in 2017.https://www.wired.com/story/pharma-s...opioid-deaths/
The scientists highlighted the results that naproxen decreased the risk of heart attack by 80 percent, and downplayed results showing that Vioxx increased the risk of heart attack by 400 percent. This misleading presentation of the evidence made it look like naproxen was protecting patients from heart attacks, and that Vioxx only looked risky by comparison. In fact, Vioxx has since been found to significantly increase cardiovascular risk, leading Merck to withdraw the product from the market in 2004.
Pharma just got convicted for helping to kill us! Federal prosecutors charged drug distributor Rochester Drug Cooperative and its former CEO with drug trafficking charges Tuesday -- the first criminal charges for a pharmaceutical company and executives in the nation's ongoing opioid crisis.https://abcnews.go.com/US/drug-execu...ry?id=62575543
You haven’t proven anything. It very well could have been trolls. It could have been groups trying to further demonize anti-vaxxers posing as them. You have no proof. You believe what you want though.
If your healthy baby dies after vaccines you’ll think it had nothing to do with vaccines though, I’m sure.
When you hear hoofbeats you’ll think zebras in that case.
Yes, clearly all anti vax posts are by trolls while all pro vaccine posts are by big pharma shills. LOL.
You’re willing to give up a lot of control people should have over their bodies all because of measles. I’m glad everyone is not so extreme. I’m really glad that the Bill in my state didn’t pass.
Amen! My issue is one of individual liberty with the right of US Citizens to decide for themselves, and their children, what medical treatment, medications, or vaccines they want put into their bodies. I agree with Senator DOCTOR Rand Paul on this. It is a liberty and freedom issue.
It will in the future if things continue to go the way they are. Militant anti vaxxers are (fortunately) few and far between. Most are the light weight garden variety that cave at the first threat of an actual disease in proximity to their kid. When the first US kid dies of measles there will probably be a vaccine shortage due to parents who are lightly anti vax scrambling over each other to get their kids vaccinated first.
I'll say it again and again so you people understand. People don't trust America's medical profession or science. Why? Because they don't deserve it!
If you want more people on board tell the medical community and scientist who work hand in hand with pharma to clean up their acts. There's case after case of their abuse. It's the information age, people see their dirty laundry.
I'm perplexed by the ignorance that you people exhibit as to why people are starting to have a trust issue with pharma and western medicine in greater numbers when there is glaring evidence of why in front of your face. They've been in the news for years getting busted for killing people.
Clean up the corruption so people can trust medicine and pharma more and you'll solve your mystery. Geezus! Put two and two together, calling people names won't change crap. It just makes you look defensive. Establish some trust, it will go farther than mandating those who don't trust it.
It will in the future if things continue to go the way they are. Militant anti vaxxers are (fortunately) few and far between. Most are the light weight garden variety that cave at the first threat of an actual disease in proximity to their kid. When the first US kid dies of measles there will probably be a vaccine shortage due to parents who are lightly anti vax scrambling over each other to get their kids vaccinated first.
Yep, the recent scare in Washington state caused a brief shortage in some areas. My friend called her doctor and made should her regularly scheduled vaccine would be there. Good thing too, because she got one of the last ones.
Yep, the recent scare in Washington state caused a brief shortage in some areas. My friend called her doctor and made should her regularly scheduled vaccine would be there. Good thing too, because she got one of the last ones.
Glad to see all the years of hard work are paying off. lol Fear seems to work well in making us take our chances because that's what it is. We decide what chance we'll take, but it looks like soon we won't have that choice. It will be decided for us. Thanks be to the lobbyist from pharma and those they pay to stand with them!! After all, it's for the good of society, right????
Drug firm pushes vaccine mandate
Just a few months after federal regulators approved a vaccine against a sexually transmitted virus that causes cervical cancer, more than a dozen states - including Maryland - are considering a requirement that girls entering middle school get it.
One of the primary drivers behind the legislative push: Merck & Co., the pharmaceutical giant that manufactures Gardasil, the only vaccine for human papillomavirus, or HPV, on the market.
The vaccine is expected to reach $1 billion in sales next year, and state mandates could make Gardasil a mega-blockbuster drug within five years, with sales of more than $4 billion, according to Wall Street analysts.
Merck, which has been arming its lobbyists across the country with information on the vaccine, has been getting an assist from Women in Government, a nonpartisan organization of female legislators whose agenda includes cervical cancer prevention. The group, like breast-cancer activists before it, works through political channels. It also takes corporate donations from Merck.https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs...04-story.html#
Yep, the recent scare in Washington state caused a brief shortage in some areas. My friend called her doctor and made should her regularly scheduled vaccine would be there. Good thing too, because she got one of the last ones.
Same thing happened in Michigan. Parents who formerly self identified as “anti vax” flooded into doctor’s offices and the health department driving the rate of vaccination up by 4 times the number given in the previous year at the same time.
It’s funny how threat of disease going from “something that only happens in 3rd world places” to “someone has measles down the street” changes people’s perception of vaccine safety.
So they all work for free out of the goodness of their hearts? No. It's a billion dollar a year INDUSTRY. Some perspective is in order. They create a product TO SELL. If it didn't sell? They wouldn't make it. If they get it on the schedule? OMG ... guaranteed customers FOREVER. The companies operate like every other company .. looking for ways to profit.
I'll let my friend know. She had GB from a flu vaccine and was hospitalized for almost 2 weeks. I'm sure your compassion for her AE will make her feel much, much better about it. /facepalm/
Pharma makes a profit. So what? It must make a profit to stay in business, and most could make more money on other drugs. They certainly would make more treating vaccine preventable diseases. For example:
"A recent analysis of vaccines to protect against 13 diseases estimated that for a single birth cohort nearly 20 million cases of diseases were prevented, including over 40,000 deaths (4). In addition to saving the lives of our children, vaccination has resulted in net economic benefits to society amounting to almost $69 billion in the United States alone."
It's a bit dishonest to talk about vaccine profit and ignore the cost of treating the diseases they prevent, don't you think?
The risk of GBS from an influenza infection is about 17 times higher than the risk from flu vaccine. By preventing flu, the vaccine prevents more cases than it causes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice
No that's YOUR opinion. You are entitled to it. None of us has to agree with you.
It's called freedom.
As has been pointed out, it's the author's opinion based on science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48
I highly doubt my SIL (at 32) and my daughter (at 38) would want to blow $300 on a shingles vaccination when that money can be used to bills despite having shingles. Money definitely is a factor when insurance won't pay for it, or there is a high co-pay. Hubs won't get the new one either. Paid a $100 copay and said "it didn't work and not spending another $100".
You did not address Lyme vaccine. Not contagious and not enough people wanted to get it. It will not be profitable enough if no market for it. We shall see how many people will get the new one in development, or under 45's get their HPV vax.
I really do not care what your family does or who does not want Lyme vaccine. As usual it is irrelevant to the thread.
All raising the age limit for HPV vaccine did was impact insurance coverage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48
What do they do today with new or booster shots when the students are already in school? The school nurse has to check all the medical records of 3rd or 7th graders, etc., to see if they are up to date? If it is a large public school, that would be a daunting task. Send letters home to parents that their child needs another/new vaccine?
Edit: I worked in public schools and never heard anything about this. In fact some of the schools only had one PART TIME Nurse. Probably why staff had to be certified in First Aide and CPR. Again, follow the money. Budget cuts.
How is your personal experience decades ago relevant to the current discussion?
I am sure managing grades for so many children is a daunting task, too.
Which specific vaccines did the article discuss? If it mentioned measles infection and the authors thought their findings had implications for vaccines, why did they not discuss vaccines?
Quote:
There’s also more to vaccines then just the disease they are trying to prevent. Injecting vs ingesting is different a well.
This article is heavily referenced so feel free to check the references.
NVIC? Really? The bastion of anti-vax pseudoscience and misinformation?
No, the amount of aluminum in vaccines is minuscule, you get more from air, water, food, and even breast milk than from vaccines, and its being injected means it is absorbed over a period of time, not all at once.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri
Scientists? Mark Crislip wrote the article and he is one person and he is not a scientist. And if Paul Offitt has yet to put his money where his mouth is and get 100,000 vaccines in one day. If he thinks it is safe for infants, he should show us all by doing it himself, since he’s such a big man. A man who helped get the rotavirus approved and who profited from it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri
I pointed it out, yet you’re the one who chose to argue about it and continue to argue about it. Even with a lot of science classes, he’s still not a scientist. Keep arguing though and changing the goal posts and then blaming me.
Paul Offit didn’t just profit from a vaccine, he was on the advisory comittee that voted to get the vaccine that he profited from on the schedule. Do you want to volunteer to get 100,000 vaccines a day and prove that he’s right?
Please tell us what you think a scientist is. I am sure the physicians in this country would be very surprised to find they are not scientists. Apparently the irony of denying physicians are scientists while you repeat anti-vax pseudoscience escapes you.
Dr. Offit recused himself. He did not vote on inclusion of the vaccine he developed.
It is amusing that the anti-vax community jumped on Dr. Offit's explanation of the tremendous reserve of the immune system - you know, that amazing immune system anti-vaxers rave about - and interpreted it to mean advocating giving children 10,000 vaccines at once (which has now morphed into 100,000, I see).
That is never what he said. He was describing how many antigens a child's immune system can handle, and it is far more than what is in all the vaccines a child will ever receive. His explanation debunks the anti-vax "too many, too soon" meme.
"A more practical way to determine the diversity of the immune response would be to estimate the number of vaccines to which a child could respond at one time. If we assume that 1) approximately 10 ng/mL of antibody is likely to be an effective concentration of antibody per epitope (an immunologically distinct region of a protein or polysaccharide),39 2) generation of 10 ng/mL requires approximately 103 B-cells per mL,39 3) a single B-cell clone takes about 1 week to reach the 103 progeny B-cells required to secrete 10 ng/mL of antibody39 (therefore, vaccine-epitope-specific immune responses found about 1 week after immunization can be generated initially from a single B-cell clone per mL), 4) each vaccine contains approximately 100 antigens and 10 epitopes per antigen (ie, 103 epitopes), and 5) approximately 107 B cells are present per mL of circulating blood,39 then each infant would have the theoretical capacity to respond to about 10 000 vaccines at any one time (obtained by dividing 107 B cells per mL by 103 epitopes per vaccine)."
See that word in red? Theoretical? He is describing "the diversity of the immune response". He never says "let's give kids 10,000 vaccines." That is a big fat anti-vax lie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri
Your first link shows the picture of the baby where the news got caught photoshopping measles onto the baby. Weird huh?
And? Poor choice of picture. Has nothing to do with the content of the article.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48
The last person in the US to die of measles was not a child, but an adult woman in Washington who was immune compromised. This is why parents in the past wanted children to catch these diseases. Far more dangerous in adults than children, well at least in the US. None have died in the current outbreaks in the US.
None have died ... yet. You have to wait years to see if anyone from the current outbreaks gets SSPE and dies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri
People die everyday, UNC. It’s 100% true that the picture is photoshopped.
They should not die from a vaccine preventable disease - or be disabled, you always ignore those people. It is apparently all right in you view for folks to be disease injured.
The pic should not have been photoshopped. The content of the article would have been the same if another photo had been used. It is really, really, really, really irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri
We don’t know a lot of details in regards to his case. It is true though that people die everyday and of things that could have been prevented. No one has died in the US in our current outbreak yet people are freaking out.
The child died from measles. Denying it does not change the fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri
I’m not Jo but of course someone could die in the US from measles. Even if we had a higher vaccination rate, it could happen. The last death from measles in the US occurred in Washington State and there wasn’t even an outbreak there. People can die from illness. We haven’t had one yet from this measles outbreak but people are still freaking out and using it to push vaccines on all.
Yet.
There was an outbreak. Where do you think the woman who died caught measles?
It is not necessary for people to be dying (or becoming disabled - you ignore them as if they do not exist) from preventable diseases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri
To be honest, I think you have a pretty low level of understanding of the issue based on your many posts on this. Our vaccination rates have been pretty stable overall in the US. There have been more outbreaks lately and the reasons are very complex. The outbreaks in Europe play a major role in what’s happening here. The war in Ukraine plays a significant role in the outbreak in Europe which plays a significant role in what’s happening here. The nature of the MMR vaccine also plays a role in what’s happening. Mistrust in pharmaceutical companies (and for good reason) play a role in what’s happening. It’s extremely complex and pointing fingers at “anti-vaxxers’. Shows a low level of understanding and is not going to fix the issue overall.
Anti-vaxers own the current outbreaks in the US. Overall vaccination rates do not apply. The outbreaks happen in communities with low vaccination rates. If all the unvaccinated people were evenly distributed throughout the population we would not be having problems with outbreaks. However, they are not. Anti-vaxers live near other anti-vaxers. One decides to take his unvaccinated self or child to a country where measles is endemic, catches it, and brings it back to friends and family. Or an infected foreign visitor comes to one of those unvaxed communities and it spreads.
Vaccinating does indeed fix it.
Last edited by suzy_q2010; 05-06-2019 at 11:44 AM..
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