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"Israel will continue to be willing to negotiate - without prior conditions from either side - with any of the neighbouring States for the conclusion of a peace treaty."
Hussein declares Jerusalem capital of the Palestine region and that region will consist of the West Bank and any other Palestinian territories which are liberated and whose inhabitants desire to join it. Gaza ? Any land later ocuupied by Palestinians [Israel ?] ?
The point was not what Jordan actually offered or Israel’s position regarding neighboring states. The point was the reaction of both Israel and the Palestinians. The Palestinians essentially said “we will do this ourselves”, the Israelis “we own Israel.” Cool. Define Israel. Does it include the West Bank or not?
Quick reminder, not to you two, but the readers. there is really no such thing as a 'Palestinian' nationality because there never has been a nation or state of Palestine.
It does not follow.
A quick reminder to you: you are promoting a myth.
The nationality or ethnic group is not defined by the state. You are trying to claim that they do not exist as a people, yet there they are. They are more true to their ancient origins than most modern nationalities can claim. That their attempts to become self-governing in their own modern state have been frustrated is not an indication that they do not exist as a people.
Kurds are another example. These people exist. You can not pretend they don't for your convenience.
A quick reminder to you: you are promoting a myth.
The nationality or ethnic group is not defined by the state. You are trying to claim that they do not exist as a people, yet there they are. They are more true to their ancient origins than most modern nationalities can claim. That their attempts to become self-governing in their own modern state have been frustrated is not an indication that they do not exist as a people.
Kurds are another example. These people exist. You can not pretend they don't for your convenience.
Exactly. People in this thread, whether out of ignorance or bad-faith arguing, conflate nationality, ethnicity, and religion. In most of the world, the concept of nationality, or which group you want sovereignty with, is only about as old as when the last empire that ruled them fell. The Palestinian nationality is older than most nationalities, having sprung up in the late 1800s-early 1900s. It is not interchangeable with “Muslim”, “Arab”, or “Jordanian”.
Because of the lessons the West learned in WWII, national boundaries were effectively frozen in the 50s. The international supply chains we all depend on are delicate, held together only by the threat of mutual destruction and the remembrance of the horrors of total war, population exchanges, and ethnic cleansing. Only separatist movements have been successful and internationally recognized. A neighboring nation closing a shipping lane in 1967 isn’t a reason for the nation that benefits the most from the post-WWII world order to go on the land offensive and eliminate another nationality.
Last edited by Westerner92; 06-11-2021 at 11:36 AM..
I said it before and I will say it again: don't conflate the State of Israel with the Jewish religion. They are NOT the same.
Israel the state is a fallible institution, just like every other government. It has all the same warts and pimples as any other, and doesn't get a special pass from legitimate criticism just because there are Jews running things.
Then why do posters keep conflating the Jewish religion with the state of Israel? This thread is about Israel, yet we have people quoting New Testament verses about Jews killing Jesus, remarks about such-and-such just being "the Jewish way," comments about "Jewish supremacists" (who think they're better than everyone), etc., etc.
When I asked if we could stop having side remarks (and not in a nice way) about Jews since this thread is about Israel, the answer came back to me that the two are linked, and you can't talk about the problems with the latter without discussing issues with the former.
And as far as a "special pass," the opposite is in play. It gets a "special attack" because Jews are running things. Just look at the lopsided U.N., and how they criticize things about Israel while overlooking WORSE from Arab countries.
Then why do posters keep conflating the Jewish religion with the state of Israel? This thread is about Israel, yet we have people quoting New Testament verses about Jews killing Jesus, remarks about such-and-such just being "the Jewish way," comments about "Jewish supremacists" (who think they're better than everyone), etc., etc.
When I asked if we could stop having side remarks (and not in a nice way) about Jews since this thread is about Israel, the answer came back to me that the two are linked, and you can't talk about the problems with the latter without discussing issues with the former.
And as far as a "special pass," the opposite is in play. It gets a "special attack" because Jews are running things. Just look at the lopsided U.N., and how the criticize things about Israel while overlooking WORSE from Arab countries.
Immigration to, and (automatic) citizenship of, Israel, the country's political identity, and the status of Jerusalem is explicitly tied to Judaism. The Basic Laws say it is a Jewish state.
I don't think you can separate the two. Israel surely doesn't.
This particular thread is about whether Palestinians present in the West Bank should be given Israeli citizenship, not about the history of Jewish movement from Arab countries to modern-day Israel and the horrid actions taken against the Jews during that process.
Continuing to point out Arab countries conducted ethnic cleansing or pogroms doesn't excuse continued occupation of the West Bank in an indeterminate status, and the treatment of Palestinians as stateless refugees in land Israel itself has not formally claimed. That's not mean, or antisemitic, that's a fact.
What happened to Jews in Arab countries is awful. It's not particularly pertinent to this thread, and it's what-about-ism, but I agree it was awful.
Last edited by GeorgiaTransplant; 06-11-2021 at 12:25 PM..
I see nobody here who said Palestinians are of no consequence. I see people here who pretend that they are innocents with no role in contributing to the conflict.
If the Palestinians set down their weapons, there would be peace. If the Israelis put down their weapons, there would be no Israel.
Tell me: are you this enraged by the outlandish and outright savage behavior of other countries, or just when the Jews are involved? Sure seems like your rage is devoted solely and entirely to the Jewish country. I can’t figure out why, when there are so many worse countries around.
If Israel would stop subjugating Palestinians, they would have no reasons to support violence. As my friend said who moved to Israel, and lived on the West Bank until a Scud missile landed 1/2 mile from his home and he decided Canada is a better place, the Palestinians he knew just wanted the same as everyone: safety, security of home, food, and freedom.
They have food. That's it. No security of home, no freedom, and sketchy safety due to Israel's actions.
What’s all this talk about Orthodox Judaism and the Talmud and how Jews don’t accept Jesus? (I’ve never heard any Jew call him a clown, contrary to your claim.)
Funny. I keep being told that being anti-Israel has nothing to do with being anti-Semitic, and then there are posters galore who come onto the thread with talk about Jews and what they believe.
And if the answer is you can’t separate a discussion of Israel from the topic of Jews, because the two are linked, then you can’t have broad-brush condemnation of Israel being separated from hostility toward Jews.
In the words of General Schwarzkopf, the bolded is Bovine Scatology to the extreme. Are you telling us those who are Jewish that oppose what Israel is doing to Palestinians are hostile against... Jews?
Immigration to, and (automatic) citizenship of, Israel, the country's political identity, and the status of Jerusalem is explicitly tied to Judaism. The Basic Laws say it is a Jewish state.
I don't think you can separate the two. Israel surely doesn't.
This particular thread is about whether Palestinians present in the West Bank should be given Israeli citizenship, not about the history of Jewish movement from Arab countries to modern-day Israel and the horrid actions taken against the Jews during that process.
Continuing to point out Arab countries conducted ethnic cleansing or pogroms doesn't excuse continued occupation of the West Bank in an indeterminate status, and the treatment of Palestinians as stateless refugees in land Israel itself has not formally claimed. That's not mean, or antisemitic, that's a fact.
What happened to Jews in Arab countries is awful. It's not particularly pertinent to this thread, and it's what-about-ism, but I agree it was awful.
It the very fact that we have multiple people starting anti-Israel threads, and never an anti-any other country thread, is the point. We will go round and round with this, but it reveals a double standard that meets the definition of antisemitism, as outlined by the State Department.
I see the anti-Israel posters are trying very ahead to insist we only focus on how bad Israel is, but the fact that that is what they choose to focus on, rather than the many Arab countries that have done worse to Jews, is telling.
Here’s the example, once more: Six kids, five whites and one black, break teacher’s vase. Teacher scolds ONLY the black kid, telling him behavior was stupid....lazy....whatever, and completely ignores the white kids. When the black kid’s parent or friend asks “why are you only scolding the black kid,” the answer comes back “because I am focused just on what the black kid did wrong. If someone else wants to talk about the whites, go ahead. But for me, my main concern is what black kid did.”
The real question is: WHY? Why does that teacher have no interest is criticizing the numerous white kids, and focuses on the sole black kid to scold”? Because......she is racist. End of story.
In the words of General Schwarzkopf, the bolded is Bovine Scatology to the extreme. Are you telling us those who are Jewish that oppose what Israel is doing to Palestinians are hostile against... Jews?
Didn’t listen to the video. Never claimed there weren’t Jewish groups doing harm to other Jews. And as to whether they are hostile to other Jews, I say their misguided liberalism overtakes their Judaism.
If Israel would stop subjugating Palestinians, they would have no reasons to support violence. As my friend said who moved to Israel, and lived on the West Bank until a Scud missile landed 1/2 mile from his home and he decided Canada is a better place, the Palestinians he knew just wanted the same as everyone: safety, security of home, food, and freedom.
They have food. That's it. No security of home, no freedom, and sketchy safety due to Israel's actions.
If Palestinians would stop lobbing rockets and electing Terrorists who want to destroy Israel, then there would be peace.
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