Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Do you really not understand that a miscarriage is organic, a naturally occurring event, but an abortion in direct contrast is the deliberate decision made and action taken to kill a perfectly healthy life for no reason other than convenience more than 98% of the time?
Do you really not understand that is not what was being discussed.
No you haven't, and thank you for the opportunity to explain further.
And yes, but it's not just society - on an individual level too, and I can only speak for myself here - I've had a couple of miscarriages and a real live child, and the two are not equitable.
While miscarriages are sad, and you mourn what could have been - you carry on and honestly I personally don't think about it all that much.
But if anything happened to my child, my child that I love more than anything you can imagine - I couldn't go on with my life. And I may go through the motions, but I assure you that that's all it would be, from here until eternity.
I respect your thoughts and understand your feelings as expressed.
Quote:
I believe that other people's pregnancies have become somewhat of a mascot adopted by proxy by the very vocal pro life movement - I mean I could get pregnant, miscarry, or abort - and it would effect those who have made it their life's work not one iota. They wouldn't even know. It's academic, those "lives" they seek to protect. And I don't seek to trivialise life in saying that. I truly don't. The foetus, embryo, fertilised egg - is not the only life impacted here.
Allow me to share some life experiences as you have done. After a few years of marriage, my wife and I decided we wanted a child. For five years we tried everything for her to become pregnant. It never happened. My sperm count was checked and found normal, but she did not get pregnant. We started thinking of adoption. Working through a lawyer and other contacts, we were made aware of a woman who was pregnant but didn't want the baby, nor an abortion. The highlights of the story is we adopted a baby girl and took her home from the hospital. Three years later, we adopted again, this time a boy who was preemie, and stayed in the hospital awhile before we could bring him home. That was how we created our family. Now we not only have two wonderful grown kids, but a bevy of grandkids to boot. Yes, the women went through nine months of gestation (or less in the case of my son), but afterward they didn't have responsibility for any child (which seems to be one of the main reasons given for abortions), didn't have any hospital bills to pay, and moved on with their lives.
Pregnancies can affect others lives, even total strangers as in my case. It is difficult for me to think all the joy and life experiences my children and grand children have given my wife and I, could have been erased by a walk though the doors of an abortion clinic.
Quote:
We do not treat the unborn as the born. One can argue it's a human, a baby, whatever nomenclature de jour, but until that very personal relationship is made public by birth, it's just not anyone else's call to make. In my very humble opinion. And I mean that sincerely, because I do see where others with differing opinions come from.
Maybe it's different today, but adoption was a very generous alternative to abortion to the many childless who could never experience that very personal relationship by birth. But one can have a very personal relationship nonetheless because of those women who choose not to end the life of the child they carry but give it its chance at life.
So here we have backgrounds of two different experiences, and the world is full of many more, not necessarily like yours or mine. When faced with life changing decisions, I like to think of alternatives that don't result in death. That's just who I am.
No you haven't, and thank you for the opportunity to explain further.
And yes, but it's not just society - on an individual level too, and I can only speak for myself here - I've had a couple of miscarriages and a real live child, and the two are not equitable.
While miscarriages are sad, and you mourn what could have been - you carry on and honestly I personally don't think about it all that much.
But if anything happened to my child, my child that I love more than anything you can imagine - I couldn't go on with my life. And I may go through the motions, but I assure you that that's all it would be, from here until eternity.
I believe that other people's pregnancies have become somewhat of a mascot adopted by proxy by the very vocal pro life movement - I mean I could get pregnant, miscarry, or abort - and it would effect those who have made it their life's work not one iota. They wouldn't even know. It's academic, those "lives" they seek to protect. And I don't seek to trivialise life in saying that. I truly don't. The foetus, embryo, fertilised egg - is not the only life impacted here.
We do not treat the unborn as the born. One can argue it's a human, a baby, whatever nomenclature de jour, but until that very personal relationship is made public by birth, it's just not anyone else's call to make. In my very humble opinion. And I mean that sincerely, because I do see where others with differing opinions come from.
:
Could not agree with you more, especially as a mother. I certainly cared more my 3rd old daughter than an embryo in my tube. While she was too young to understand the whys of me going to the hospital, it scared her and was crying. Mommy I don't want you to die. Daughter had nightmares afterwards and wanted to sleep in my bed. ONLY an already born child can have thoughts like that. The entire time I was in the hospital all could think about was my living daughter, not that embryo. And of course my own life with that ruptured ectopic pregnancy.
Nobody ever said to me "So sorry for the loss of your baby". All they said was are YOU OK ? Uncaring people for the unborn? Far more people would/SHOULD be more concerned with the already living woman, same as for the already living child.
I don't think about those early miscarriages, but I do about the ectopic, but not in the way some posters think I should. My thoughts are more about how that hospital mistreated me, that I could have died, and my child left motherless.
Nope. Life has one or more of several characteristics, one of which is growth and development. For example, one of the characteristics of life is the ability to reproduce. Can a 2 year old human reproduce? No. Does that mean a 2 year old human isn't a live being? Of course not.
Quote:
Well, if someone just doesn't have the money for the birth, they don't have it. Are you going to give it to them? Seems like a relatively affordable price to save a baby, since you consider an embryos/fetuses babies, and you care so deeply about them. How many pregnancies have you sponsored?
You seem to be unaware that 42% all US births are paid for by Medicaid, the FREE health care program for those who are poor.
The US poverty rate is 11.4%, but the percentage of all US births paid for by Medicaid is 42%. Anyone recognize the problem?
That stat makes sense when you consider the fact that abortion is a privilege of the rich due to both the very small number of abortion clinics in the US (272 per CNN) and the fact that abortion unlike childbirth isn't covered by federally-funded Medicaid.
Women in the highest income category have the highest abortion rate.
Abortion Rates by Income Level, Unintended Pregnancies
Do you really not understand that is not what was being discussed.
That is exactly what is being discussed: the difference between miscarriage and abortion, since both result in death. Miscarriage does not occur as the result of a deliberate intent and action taken to kill, abortion does. That's a significant difference.
Nope. Life has one or more of several characteristics, one of which is growth and development. For example, one of the characteristics of life is the ability to reproduce. Can a 2 year old human reproduce? No. Does that mean a 2 year old human isn't a live being? Of course not.
You seem to be unaware that 42% all US births are paid for by Medicaid, the FREE health care program for those who are poor.
The US poverty rate is 11.4%, but the percentage of all US births paid for by Medicaid is 42%. Anyone recognize the problem?
That stat makes sense when you consider the fact that abortion is a privilege of the rich due to both the very small number of abortion clinics in the US (272 per CNN) and the fact that abortion unlike childbirth isn't covered by federally-funded Medicaid.
Women in the highest income category have the highest abortion rate.
Abortion Rates by Income Level, Unintended Pregnancies
More than 90% of poor women who are unintentionally pregnant don't abort. They keep their babies. Abortion is a higher-income woman's privilege.
Those poor women can not only get Medicade for the birth but they can get Welfare once those babies are born. It is more the lower middle class women who have the problems.
Those poor women can not only get Medicade for the birth but they can get Welfare once those babies are born. It is more the lower middle class women who have the problems.
They seem to not be having problems as they're NOT the ones most often choosing to abort. Look at the statistics I posted. It's the women who can most easily afford to have and raise a baby that are choosing to abort at much higher rates than any other group.
Those poor women can not only get Medicade for the birth but they can get Welfare once those babies are born. It is more the lower middle class women who have the problems.
Isn't that all the more reason to use birth control correctly and constantly? The success rate is very high and I don't want to hear about the whataboutisms anymore either.
That is exactly what is being discussed: the difference between miscarriage and abortion, since both result in death. Miscarriage does not occur as the result of a deliberate intent and action taken to kill, abortion does. That's a significant difference.
You are incorrect. We arent talking about the biology of miscarriage vs. abortion, we are talking about the difference in how the respective dead fetuses are perceived.
Isn't that all the more reason to use birth control correctly and constantly? The success rate is very high and I don't want to hear about the whataboutisms anymore either.
So abortions have decreased since the highest number in 1990; 1,608,800 GI, 1,429,247 CDC, to 930,160, GI/629,898 CDC in 2020. The lowest number being in 2017. As well both the birth rate (15.57 to 11.99) and fertility rate (1.91 to 1.78)have been in decline. There is nothing else that this can indicate except women are having fewer pregnancies, both wanted and unwanted, and more women using BC correctly and consistently.
Never, never, never going to get a 100%. There are people that just aren't capable for whatever reason, education, genetics, environment, addiction, intelligence. Just like there are always going to be those who are perpetually unemployed and/or poor, those who become addicted to drugs, alcoholics, have medical issues due to diet, stay in bad relationships, become criminals, generally make bad decisions, etc.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Could not agree with you more, especially as a mother. I certainly cared more my 3rd old daughter than an embryo in my tube. While she was too young to understand the whys of me going to the hospital, it scared her and was crying. Mommy I don't want you to die. Daughter had nightmares afterwards and wanted to sleep in my bed. ONLY an already born child can have thoughts like that. The entire time I was in the hospital all could think about was my living daughter, not that embryo. And of course my own life with that ruptured ectopic pregnancy.