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Videos where the police do the right thing are not going to get lots of views on youtube because they are boring. Out of the millions of police encounters each year there are going to be thousands where the police are wrong. And those cops who violate procedure or break the law need to be disciplined or fired for that.
I think police officers almost always abuse their power. It is the nature of the position(power corrupts). That doesn't mean they abuse their power in every instance. In many/most interactions that isn't even possible. Moreover, most people don't know what the laws are, so even if the police are lying and abusing their power, it isn't obvious. Furthermore, I think most people, even if they believe they were wronged, aren't going to make a big deal about it because it isn't worth their time.
I've basically never broken the law in my entire life. Never got a speeding ticket. Never ran a stop sign. No moving violations whatsoever, but I have never had a good interaction with the police in my entire life. When I see them I don't feel safe, I become nervous, anxious, and afraid. And for good reason. Police always remind me of the sharks that swim along coral reefs. If you've ever been to an aquarium you've probably seen the shark in the tank with all the other fish. That is what I see when a cop is driving down a road next to the other cars. I'm the fish waiting to be attacked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oklazona Bound
And most of the ones I see the person being pulled over is difficult or not cooperating. That often leads to the officer getting agitated and escalates the traffic stop. Traffic stops are very simple. Pull over. Roll down your window. Hands on the steering wheel. Give the officer your id and paperwork when asked. Don't converse more than necessary. And if you are polite and its a minor infraction you have a good chance of getting off with a warning (90% of the time in my life) and you can go on your way.
The person I was responding to claimed that nothing happens to innocent people. I wrote my post to refute that claim. Many innocent people have been brutalized by the police, including in their own homes, and the police lie about it, all of them, they will cover for each other, there are no "good cops" that rat them out, and the courts will always take the word of the police over that of a private citizen. If you don't have it on camera, you're ****ed.
Secondly, while I agree that you often get a warning if you are polite, it really depends on the police department. Here in Oklahoma City there is a place called "Valleybrook" which never gives a warning for anything. They will impose the harshest fines/penalties in every stop, including towing your vehicle and throwing you onto the street for minor infractions if the law permits.
This idea that the police are anything but a gang of thugs who terrorize citizens is a delusion. I'm tired of bootlickers defending them. They are at best a necessary evil.
The person I was responding to claimed that nothing happens to innocent people. I wrote my post to refute that claim. Many innocent people have been brutalized by the police, including in their own homes, and the police lie about it, all of them, they will cover for each other, there are no "good cops" that rat them out, and the courts will always take the word of the police over that of a private citizen. If you don't have it on camera, you're ****ed.
I think it's just the opposite. There are far more criminals, violent people, law-breakers and lowlifes who get away with their act or never get caught than there are innocent people who are abused or brutalized by the police.
That is the real problem with our society as I see it. We need to have much harsher punishments for people who commit illegal acts or break the law. That includes people who intentionally protect or cover for criminals.
I think police officers almost always abuse their power. It is the nature of the position(power corrupts). That doesn't mean they abuse their power in every instance. In many/most interactions that isn't even possible. Moreover, most people don't know what the laws are, so even if the police are lying and abusing their power, it isn't obvious. Furthermore, I think most people, even if they believe they were wronged, aren't going to make a big deal about it because it isn't worth their time.
I've basically never broken the law in my entire life. Never got a speeding ticket. Never ran a stop sign. No moving violations whatsoever, but I have never had a good interaction with the police in my entire life. When I see them I don't feel safe, I become nervous, anxious, and afraid. And for good reason. Police always remind me of the sharks that swim along coral reefs. If you've ever been to an aquarium you've probably seen the shark in the tank with all the other fish. That is what I see when a cop is driving down a road next to the other cars. I'm the fish waiting to be attacked.
The person I was responding to claimed that nothing happens to innocent people. I wrote my post to refute that claim. Many innocent people have been brutalized by the police, including in their own homes, and the police lie about it, all of them, they will cover for each other, there are no "good cops" that rat them out, and the courts will always take the word of the police over that of a private citizen. If you don't have it on camera, you're ****ed.
Secondly, while I agree that you often get a warning if you are polite, it really depends on the police department. Here in Oklahoma City there is a place called "Valleybrook" which never gives a warning for anything. They will impose the harshest fines/penalties in every stop, including towing your vehicle and throwing you onto the street for minor infractions if the law permits.
This idea that the police are anything but a gang of thugs who terrorize citizens is a delusion. I'm tired of bootlickers defending them. They are at best a necessary evil.
Well, take your choice. Do you want the police to be proactive......or wait till the crime happens, come take their reports, start from there.
A and B. A: One does know one of the ways that the Israelis prevent hijackings and that is to have people talking to passengers, looking for certain signs that reveal the crook in the fold.
B: Keep in mind that Son of Sam and Ted Bundy were tripped up by traffic violations.
Is there an answer? There's always going to be a few bad cops in the mix. The main difference now is that there are more cameras around. The possibility of being filmed and charged is probably the best way to keep them well behaved.
Well, take your choice. Do you want the police to be proactive......or wait till the crime happens, come take their reports, start from there.
You're talking to someone who actually does want to abolish the police. Your examples are somewhat pointless though because society as it is now cannot exist without police. As I said in my earlier post...
"Police are evil, but they are a necessary evil in our diverse/unequal/hateful country. They are the only thing that prevents the poor from killing the rich. Without them there would be no United States. They are the only thing that holds this country together."
Well, I personally have been pulled over as a young black male between my early 20's up into my mid 30's.. ..I fit the profile.. I have been pulled over probably a total of 7 - 8 times in my driving career, all legitimate offenses though, but I have no tickets, no infractions, no charges.. ..mainly because I didn't throw a big fuss about it and was willing to comply with the officer.
The first time was doing 65 in a 50 zone in a Cherry Apple Red 2001 Camaro Z28. Cop was irritated but he let me off with a warning because I had no prior infractions and I didn't escalate matters.
Second time, I made a left turn while I was in the middle of an intersection after the light turned red. While I did wonder about the legality of that, I didn't bug the cop about it and just cooperated with him. He explained it wasn't a right to turn intersection ... I just said 'Yes sir.' and he let me go on my way.
The third time, I was heading to Florida in a Monte Carlo - my fathers car. I was fitting the profile and got lit up for the Georgia State Patrol. At first I thought he was flagging me for speeding, but he told me something about a cover being on our license plate (how could he have seen that from a dead stop is beyond me). After he saw it was just me (who was alteast clean cut) and my mother (who looked like a business woman) his suspicion seemingly dropped. He asked where we were headed, I told him we were going to a Real Estate Convention.. ..he let us go on our way..
The fourth time, I was going through a breakup and had alot on my mind, I wasn't paying attention to how fast I was going and ended up doing 50 in a 35. I didn't even notice the cop had been pursuing me for several blocks either. She was PISSED when I finally pulled over. I deeply and sincerely apologized to her when she asked me why I didnt immediately pull over, I told her I just had alot on my mind after a breakup. She seemed very suspicious at first. She ran my license and came back and told me my saving grace was that I had a clean record and reminded me of what the speed limit was.
The fifth time. I was headed to Denny's once again in the same Firebird. It was 3am, I couldn't sleep.. I decided I'd grab some breakfast.. ..a cat jumped out infront of and scared the living crap out of me, I jumped into the left lane to avoid it and ended up jumping infront of another vehicle, then I jumped into the center turn lane to avoid being rear-ended by that vehicle.. ..then came back over to the right lane, and got lit up... The cop pulled me over and wanted to know why I was dancing all over the road, I explained to him what happened. He ran my license, came back and gave me a warning and told me he didn't want to see driving like that again.
The sixth time. I was doing 65 in a 50 zone again, this time in a 2017 Camaro, albeit on a much wider and flatter / open road where 50 felt a bit slow, I was trying to get around someone too, got pulled over by a biker cop. Cooperated with him, he asked me where I was from ( I had just moved to TX ) and what I did for work ( I was in IT ) .. and he let me go free after that and reminded me the speed limit.
The seventh time. I feel this 'may' have been a profiling attempt as I drove by a cop who was sitting on the shoulder of the road while I was doing an Uber and pulled into a very affluent neighbhorhood. I got lit up but the cop calmed down when they saw my Uber app and told me she was just pulling me over because my license tag light was out and told me if everything cleared on my MVR I was good to go... and got off with another warning. I ended up selling the car before I replaced the license tag light though.
The eighth time happened fairly recently, and ironically too. I was pulling into a empty and wide street zoned for residential (no houses on it, and very wide.. ..just in a residential side of town) The street used to have a 40 MPH speed limit but the city reduced it to 30. I entered the street doing 55. I noticed and told myself 'whoa, I need to slow down' .. ..and I did.. ..but then kept driving and the random thoughts came back and I wandered into 45 ... ... and passed a cop ... got lit up .. pulled over immediately, I knew I was at fault and didn't even bother trying to fabricate a lie, I straight up told the cop I wasn't paying attention. I was still using an out of state license too (the DMV's were backlogged due to Covid-19 and it took me over a year to get an appointment) and explained the situation. She cooperated, ran my license.. ..came back to me and gave me a warning but cautioned me to slow down. I also apologized to her.
So from my personal experiences I can't conclude that bad cop experiences are always explicitly due to race but.. ..multiple factors and race is sometimes one of them.
That stated, I personally will not escalate matters with a cop. I think it's stupid to do so. That stated though I have witnessed where matters escalated on the cops side even when the person was acting within his rights, and sometimes even peacefully.. ..and I also find it appalling how many cops seem not to know our rights or constitution which, gets alittle scary.
Sound like Black privilege to me! The only time I ever got pulled over where they didn't give me a ticket was one time they saw me drinking out of a silver can and thought it was a beer, but it was a diet Coke.
Personally I am against defunding the police, or even funding reallocations that include modifying the police budget and reducing the number of officers and especially replacing them with social workers.
HOWEVER
I will acknowledge, there are alot of bad apples out there that are cops, and many of them do not become prosecuted when they violate the rights of citizens due to Qualified Immunity, and/or favor from the department in general which runs rampant among cops. This, unfortunately incites public fear of police and also causes unnecessary escalations between the public and the police.
I am a black male and I do believe in racial profiling, but I do not believe cop misconduct is strictly restricted to race. I have seen cops abuse white ex-military veterans and arrest them without cause just as much as they would fire a bean bag on a BLM protester who is not actively posing violence but protesting peacefully and not interfering with the public or business. I've seen them beat up a white woman who was not in any way or form a threat to the officer but just not fully compliant to the officer and countless unlawful detainments as well as brutality of all races.
Another issue is, who really wants to be a cop? They are underpaid, hated by the public (even more so today) and have quite a dangerous job, therefore the typical contender to the badge is either A.) has a deep passion for the job or B.) is a total nutjob who is willing to undertake the risks and is probably a bit borderline himself to be willing to do so. ... and option B is typically the person who violates rights and gets away with it.
Some hypothetical thoughts on policing and racism...
I am not entirely sure if Chauvin kneeled on Floyd's neck only because he was black, as Chauvin seemingly displayed insecurity issues throughout his career. Quite possible that it had nothing to do with race and everything to do with Chauvin as a person, but I can't dismiss the race factor entirely. Floyd and Chauvin did clash together frequently in the past as they were both security gaurds in the same night club years prior, but its not clear if Chauvin recognized Floyd or not either. Overall, both were in the wrong IMO, there were no hero's in that incident.
On the otherhand, Rayshard Brooks 'was' shot and killed with legitimate reasoning after the officer was very cooperative with him, had a legitimate reason to arrest him, he resisted, and even grabbed the officer's taser, and pointed it at him.
That stated though, while I overall agree there have been alot of police incidents where the criminal was misrepresented as the victim, I also have to acknowledge that police brutality, violence and oppression 'is' a real problem in America, but I don't agree with the solutions of funding reallocations and becoming softer on legitimate crime. There needs to be a way to hold officers more accountable for their civil actions while maintaining their integrity to real law offenders.
Ummmmm…….. people stop committing so many crimes?
Personally I am against defunding the police, or even funding reallocations that include modifying the police budget and reducing the number of officers and especially replacing them with social workers.
HOWEVER
I will acknowledge, there are alot of bad apples out there that are cops, and many of them do not become prosecuted when they violate the rights of citizens due to Qualified Immunity, and/or favor from the department in general which runs rampant among cops. This, unfortunately incites public fear of police and also causes unnecessary escalations between the public and the police.
I am a black male and I do believe in racial profiling, but I do not believe cop misconduct is strictly restricted to race. I have seen cops abuse white ex-military veterans and arrest them without cause just as much as they would fire a bean bag on a BLM protester who is not actively posing violence but protesting peacefully and not interfering with the public or business. I've seen them beat up a white woman who was not in any way or form a threat to the officer but just not fully compliant to the officer and countless unlawful detainments as well as brutality of all races.
Another issue is, who really wants to be a cop? They are underpaid, hated by the public (even more so today) and have quite a dangerous job, therefore the typical contender to the badge is either A.) has a deep passion for the job or B.) is a total nutjob who is willing to undertake the risks and is probably a bit borderline himself to be willing to do so. ... and option B is typically the person who violates rights and gets away with it.
Some hypothetical thoughts on policing and racism...
I am not entirely sure if Chauvin kneeled on Floyd's neck only because he was black, as Chauvin seemingly displayed insecurity issues throughout his career. Quite possible that it had nothing to do with race and everything to do with Chauvin as a person, but I can't dismiss the race factor entirely. Floyd and Chauvin did clash together frequently in the past as they were both security gaurds in the same night club years prior, but its not clear if Chauvin recognized Floyd or not either. Overall, both were in the wrong IMO, there were no hero's in that incident.
On the otherhand, Rayshard Brooks 'was' shot and killed with legitimate reasoning after the officer was very cooperative with him, had a legitimate reason to arrest him, he resisted, and even grabbed the officer's taser, and pointed it at him.
That stated though, while I overall agree there have been alot of police incidents where the criminal was misrepresented as the victim, I also have to acknowledge that police brutality, violence and oppression 'is' a real problem in America, but I don't agree with the solutions of funding reallocations and becoming softer on legitimate crime. There needs to be a way to hold officers more accountable for their civil actions while maintaining their integrity to real law offenders.
The answer to your question is so far only insurance companies are able to effect meaningful change in how police departments behave.
Small municipal police departments throughout the country have had to disband and close shop because they lost their police misconduct coverage.
Picture this: a small department has paid out two misconduct cases totaling $350k over 3 years.
The insurance company asks:
Were the officer fired? No
Were the officers disciplined? No
Did they have any mandatory training on deescalation?No
The officers were promoted
The insurance companies see more payouts in the future and cancel the coverage.
In the alameda county sheriffs case the family declined $700k settlement offer and won $8.5 million
Those officers were promoted
If i buy a new Porsche and get in a bunch of fender benders my insurance company will drop me also.
With ubiquitous cell phone videos and growing awareness of police misconduct many people will not interact with police without their cell phone recording. Insurance companies force some departments to provide training because they are taking a big hit.
Change is not being driven by moral considerations but by financial interests.
The idea that cities are paying out 10s of millions in payments every year and cops rarely violate citizens rights is absurd.these are yearly averages and are expected to increase with more citizens recording police interactions
NYC $170 million
Chicago $46 million
LA $32 million
Wash dc $13 million
IN YOUR OPINION, some videos show excessive force, 'false arrest,' etc...
MOST police officers are trained very well in constitutional rights and are not going to engage in any duty-related activity that violates those rights. That's a pretty basic tenet of their training. If there are a group of officers involved in an incident with a subject, it might be a team take down of a person fighting the police or someone on drugs, etc who cannot be subdued.
But why do I think you know this? In this climate, unless something goes seriously south, well-trained officers are not gonna get involved in this nonsense. It's not worth it. And this is where we are.
If an adverse incident is reported, captured on video, etc, I guarantee that any officer who was present will be interviewed and provide a statement.
Well, take your choice. Do you want the police to be proactive......or wait till the crime happens, come take their reports, start from there.
A and B. A: One does know one of the ways that the Israelis prevent hijackings and that is to have people talking to passengers, looking for certain signs that reveal the crook in the fold.
B: Keep in mind that Son of Sam and Ted Bundy were tripped up by traffic violations.
The Israelis profile their air travelers. Hard. And that's because they are smart. Most terrorists are single, male military age, not 60 year old grandmas. And they question the **** out of them, looking them in the eye, looking for behavioral red flags, etc.
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The only time I ever got pulled over where they didn't give me a ticket was one time they saw me drinking out of a silver can and thought it was a beer, but it was a diet Coke.
