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Old 06-12-2009, 08:40 PM
 
1,481 posts, read 1,879,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Ok, I'm a "left wing liberal" I don't have the slightest problem with disassociating myself from the ultra left, be they communist, eco-terrorist, or any fringe movement who advocates violence to advance their ideas, but it seems that time after time, conservatives have a real tough time doing the same regarding violent anti-abortionist, white supremacist, or general ultra right lunatics. I would think that an intellectually honest conservative wouldn't have the slightest problem with castigating the fringe elements of their political side of the aisle, so what's up with that?
Conservatives have always stepped up to the plate to assign blame.

You are a fool. If not, give some examples.

Oh, and brainiac, shine that fine, thoughtful light on the libs. And then go hide in shame.
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Old 06-12-2009, 08:59 PM
 
2,105 posts, read 1,276,165 times
Reputation: 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
You have a valid point - in part - because the language in use is so mottled with reversed meanings, that it is improbable that anyone espousing a "wing" position, is fully aware of it.

Let's consider the wing with which people are associated with, when speaking of political partisanship.
LEFT WING - the section of a political party, government or group that holds the most left or radical views.
- - - Webster's Dictionary

RIGHT WING - the section of a political party, government or group that holding the views of the Right.
- - - Webster's Dictionary

THE RIGHT - that section of a political party ... which associates itself with traditional authority or opinion and which in legislative bodies is seated traditionally to the right of the presiding officer.
- - - Webster's Dictionary

THE LEFT - that section of a political party ... which differs most from traditional authority or opinion and which in legislative bodies is seated traditionally to the left of the presiding officer.
- - - Webster's Dictionary
Is that clear?
Left = opposition to traditional authority or opinion
Right = support of traditional authority or opinion

Pursuant to the Declaration of Independence, governments are instituted among men to :
(1) secure rights (life, liberty, property); and
(2) govern those who consent.

That's the "traditional authority" or "opinion" that founded these united States.

Ergo, a TRUE RIGHT WINGER would be in support of the individual's right to life and opposed to anything that impairs or denies that right to life... like predatory attacks, poisoning, and covert schemes to rob.
A TRUE RIGHT WINGER would be in support of liberty (i.e., natural and personal), and would oppose any reduction in natural and personal liberty.
A TRUE RIGHT WINGER would be in support of an individual's right to absolutely own himself, his labor and the fruits of his labor.

Do you find yourself in agreement with THESE "right wing" opinions?
Or do you oppose them?

If you do oppose them, then you are LEFT WING, despite calling yourself "right wing" "neocon" "fascist" or any other derogatory label.
You are opposed to private property ownership, natural and personal liberty, and the freedom of the individual.

Remember, socialism = piracy. Socialists seek to dispossess private property owners, and transfer their property into collective ownership, managed by the benevolent STATE.
Socialists, by definition, are LEFT WING - which means that the "Fascists" and "NAZIs" of WW2 were LEFT WING, not RIGHT WING.
It was self evident that Mussolini and Hitler had no respect for the individual, his rights, his liberties, or his property.

And since 1935, the U.S.A. has been socialist, via "voluntary" participation in Socialist InSecurity. Which might explain why Americans no longer absolutely own anything, and if they fail to pay their socialist taxes, the government TAKES their property, their liberty, and in some cases, their LIVES.

Welcome to the United Socialist States of America!
Americans don't own anything because our manufacturing is about one-tenth the size it was just a few short decades ago, and because we went way overboard with credit.

I know literally dozens of people who are now finding out the hard way, that all their credit over extension lifestyle during the 90s is no longer sustainable. Yeah, I used to be a tad jealous of their nice homes and vehicles, but at least *I* am not losing mine now, like many of them are (my best friend, Gos bless him, really over extended and now his family is paying the price, they were foreclosed). because I have always been extremely conservative when it comes to credit, like most of us used to be.

We are credit crazy and about all we do now is consume, since we hardly produce anything anymore. A recipe for disaster.

You go ahead and blame our troubles on liberal "socialist" boogeymen though. Whatever it takes.
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Old 06-12-2009, 09:00 PM
 
2,105 posts, read 1,276,165 times
Reputation: 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by omle View Post
Conservatives have always stepped up to the plate to assign blame.

You are a fool. If not, give some examples.

Oh, and brainiac, shine that fine, thoughtful light on the libs. And then go hide in shame.
Name calling is basically an admission of defeat.
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Old 06-12-2009, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Not far from Fairbanks, AK
17,450 posts, read 31,105,889 times
Reputation: 13551
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
FYI -McVeigh was a registered Republican (though I seem to recall reading that he considered himself a Libertarian)

CNN.com - Timothy McVeigh - March 29, 2001

Ken
He may have been a Republican, but are Republicans right wingers? Right wingers aren't just Republican. Some Republicans are liberal, while others aren't. McVeigh attacked the Government. He was an extremist, not a right winger.
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Old 06-12-2009, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Not far from Fairbanks, AK
17,450 posts, read 31,105,889 times
Reputation: 13551
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudynm View Post
Too many faux news watchers on this thread. twisty twist.
So, only those who watch Fox twist the news? Not those who watch CNN?
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Old 06-12-2009, 09:42 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
20,456 posts, read 24,016,785 times
Reputation: 7580
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK View Post
He may have been a Republican, but are Republicans right wingers? Right wingers aren't just Republican. Some Republicans are liberal, while others aren't. McVeigh attacked the Government. He was an extremist, not a right winger.
Tim McVeigh's "Bill of Rights":


Tim's Bill of Rights

1.) Neither Speech, Press, Religion, nor Assembly shall be infringed, nor shall such be forced upon any person by the government of the United States.

2.) There shall be no standing military force during peacetime, (this) to include large bodies of federal law enforcers or coalitions of these officers that would constitute a military force, with the exception of sea-based maritime forces.

3.) The Executive Office shall hold no power to unilaterally alter Constitutional rights.

4.) No person shall be subjected to any form of direct taxation or wage withholdings by the Federal government.

5.) No person's life or liberty shall be taken without due process. Any government employee circumventing due process rights shall be punished with imprisonment. Citizens shall not be subjected to invasions of their homes or property by employees of the Federal government. Property or other assets of United States citizens shall not be subject to forfeiture to the Federal government.

6.) Personal activities that do not infringe upon the rights or property of another shall not be charged, prosecuted, or punished by the United States government. Any crime alleged will be prosecuted by the jurisdiction most local to the alleged crime, respectively. No person shall be twice tried for an offense alleged and adjudicated in another jurisdiction. No person shall be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment, nor shall the Federal government hold power to execute any individual as punishment for a crime convicted, or contract to another entity for this purpose. No person shall be held to account for the actions of another, unless proven by more than one witness to be the principal figure.

7.) All currency shall be redeemable in a globally recognized material of intrinsic value, such as silver.

8.) Legislative members shall earn no more than twice the current poverty level and shall not be subject to any additional pay, bonuses, rewards, gifts, entitlements, or other such privileges, as holding such office is meant to serve the people and should not be looked upon as a capitalist career opportunity.

9.) Where non-violent checks and balances fail to remedy government abuse or tyranny, the common people reserve the right to rebellion. Inherent with this right, the common people maintain the absolute right to own and possess those weapons which are used by any level of government for domestic policing.

10.) Any rights not enumerated here belong inherently to the people or the states respectively, and shall not be assumed by omission (to be) delegated to the jurisdiction of the federal government.

Timothy J. McVeigh

28 May, 2001


Pretty Libertarian (especially the stuff I marked in red). It's certainly NOT Left Wing.

Letter from Timothy McVeigh

Ken
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Old 06-12-2009, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Not far from Fairbanks, AK
17,450 posts, read 31,105,889 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
Sorry buddy, it's you and Rush who are re-writing history. Standard political spectrum has Communists on the Left, Fascists on the Right. Germany was a Fascist state - and was allied with the OTHER Fascist state (Italy) against the Communists.

Traditional Right-Left model: http://www.worldnewsspectrum.com/European.jpg



Right and Left isn't simply defined by support for Israel. Get real.
Nor are NAZI's simply defined simply by a hatred of Jews - they dislike ALL non-White races.

Which party is the one made up of mostly old WHITE males?
I'll give you a clue - it's the one on the RIGHT.
Which party has the most minorities?
I'll give you another clue - it's the one on the Left.

Ken
I see, in your "political views" Democrats are communists? I don't think it's so, nor do I think that Nazis or fascists are only right wingers.

1. Hitler was and became supreme leader as a socialist, a member of the German Socialist Party. Although he disliked other races, the main subject of his rage were Jews. If you don't believe me, listen to his speeches.

2. The Holocaust was perpetrated by the Nazis under Hitler's command, regardless of being fascists or not.

3. Most US Christians back Israel and the Jews 100%. Jews are considered by Christians as "God's chosen people." Christians in general lean right, not left. True Christians are pro-life, anti-homosexuality.

4. The White Supremacists in the US, skin heads, and the German Nazi sympathizers are anti-Jew. The ones in the US are both anti-Jew and anti-black.

5. Religious peoples are on all sides. Some are Republican, some are Democrat, some are independent (not associated with any political party). Some Democrats are conservative, a lot of Democrats are liberal and left, and a few are extremists. Some Republicans are conservative and right, while others are liberal, and and just like the Democrats, there is a very small portion of extremists.
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Old 06-12-2009, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Not far from Fairbanks, AK
17,450 posts, read 31,105,889 times
Reputation: 13551
Quote:
Originally Posted by omle View Post
Conservatives have always stepped up to the plate to assign blame.

You are a fool. If not, give some examples.

Oh, and brainiac, shine that fine, thoughtful light on the libs. And then go hide in shame.
Example of "conservatives stepping-up to the plate to assign blame:"

KATRINA: "Blame it on Bush"
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Old 06-13-2009, 12:37 AM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
20,456 posts, read 24,016,785 times
Reputation: 7580
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK View Post
I see, in your "political views" Democrats are communists?
Where the heck do you get THAT from? I never said that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK View Post
I don't think it's so, nor do I think that Nazis or fascists are only right wingers.
Well the truth of the matter is it all depends on the political model you subscribe to. I was referring specifically to the "traditional" political spectrum - and in that model ALL NAZI's and Fascists are on the Right and ALL Communists and Socialists are on the Left. This has been the traditional model since before WWII. Lately some folks have been pushing alternate models, some Republicans (such as Rush) have been trying to shove all the "bad folks" over to the Left in a blatant attempt to simply make themselves look better - others have more honest and valid reasons.

Certainly you can make a case that all the "totalitarian" folks belong on one side and the "Anarchy" leaning folks belong on the other. That is certainly a valid political model. In that particular model both Democrats AND Republicans are grouped together on the Left (along with the various flavors of "Totalitiarians" - who make up the extreme far end) while the Right is made up of Libertarians and (at the extreme end) Anarchists. I can accept that model if that is what you are proposing.

Generally speaking though when folks in American define Right and Left they mean Republicans and Democrats - and in THAT political model Fascists and NAZI's are on the Right and Communists and Socialists are on the Left. That's a fact - that's how the political spectrum as been defined for nearly 3/4s of a century now (see attached images).

Here is an interesting article arguing for the alternate political model:

Illusion of Opposites

While the article refers to the alternate model as the "True View" the fact is, either one can be true - depending on how you organize the groupings. Note however that NEITHER of these models pictures the Democrats, Communists, Socialists, NAZI's and Fascists all on one side with the Republicans on the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK View Post
1. Hitler was and became supreme leader as a socialist, a member of the German Socialist Party. Although he disliked other races, the main subject of his rage were Jews. If you don't believe me, listen to his speeches.
I don't need to listen to his speeches. I've heard lots of his speeches. I dare say I know far more about Hitler than you can ever hope to know since I'm a WWII History buff (and actually intended to teach it at one time) with a great uncle who was a high-ranking Wehrmacht General in the war. Sure Hitler hated the Jews, but the fact is no one is quite sure WHY he hated the Jews - certainly he didn't seem to hate during his youth. Most historians suspect that he simply got caught up in the NAZI rhetoric blaming the Jews for Germany's defeat in WWI and ended up buying into it lock, stock and barrel.

Ken
Attached Thumbnails
Why Is It So Hard For the Right To Disavow Right Wing Extremist?-rightleftline.jpg   Why Is It So Hard For the Right To Disavow Right Wing Extremist?-rightleftline2.jpg  
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Old 06-13-2009, 01:14 AM
 
2,105 posts, read 1,276,165 times
Reputation: 636
Socialist, with regard to Nazis is a misnomer. It was chosen simply to sell the party to the population.There was nothing socialist about them.
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