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This is the same sort of restrictively narrow dictionary-worship as got you painted into a corner re the meaning of atheism. There is nothing Christian or so much as religious about any of the trappings of the Christmas holiday, save for any such church-going or independent Christ-child adoration that a particular individual or family might choose to include as part of the celebrations. Leave all of that out and you still have a celebration of the Christmas holiday, just as much as if you had omitted mistletoe or football or having turkey or ham for dinner. This is why the words Merry Christmas have any general utility or application at all. Let's face it -- the majority of Americans will not include ANY sort of actual Christian religious observation in their holidays, and many of those who do will go no further than perfunctory engagement in a momentarily distractive act such as reciting some sort of grace before the Christmas meal.
As has been noted in this thread, the celebration of Christmas in America is not principally of religious origin. Its roots lie much more in reformism, culture envy, and commercialism. Claiming that Christmas is an exclusive and proprietary holiday open only to professed Christians -- and maybe not even to the less devout of those -- is in fact a pompous, arrogant, and counter-historical act. I repeat -- your holiday is not special, your religion is not special, and you are not special because your belief in or practice of either.
That is what it is about for YOU, and no one is demanding that you alter your version of the holiday at all. Except insofar as you celebrate it annually by trying to take it away from others whose beliefs or non-beliefs you judge to be inferior to your own.
This is so wrong it's silly.
CHRISTMAS is the celebration of the birth of CHRIST. This isn't narrow mindedness, it's simply fact. If you celebrate CHRISTMAS, then you celebrate the birth of CHRIST.
Now, have people who are NOT Christians taken to partaking of the spirit that overwhelms much of America in the season leading up to and including Christmas? Sure. Do non Christians go to the parties, drink the drinks, buy presents, kiss under mistletoe, and participate in many of the other trappings of that holiday season? Sure they do. But they are NOT celebrating Christmas. They are having a party, for whatever reason they want to have it, on the same day or in the same season as Christmas, but they are NOT celebrating Christmas. They're celebrating December 25th, or the winter solstice, or Groovy Tuesday, or Anti Christmas, or drunken december, or some other thing that happens to fall on the same day, whether by coincidence or design.
You can't go changing what words mean in order to make them mean what you want them to mean. Even if you don't like the way that some Christians celebrate Christmas, and even if you believe it's become too commercial a holiday and that even many Christians have lost sight of some of the meaning of the holiday, CHRISTMAS still means the celebration of the birth of Christ. And you having a party on December 25th, without any reference, recognition or concern about Christ, does not mean you are celebrating Christmas in some other way. You are celebrating something, but it's not Christmas. And no one (or very few) wants to force you to celebrate Christmas. I think ost Christians don't mind that you aren't celebrating Christmas, but are having a good time celebrating whatever it is that you want to celebrate in that day.
What is it that you use to determine that someone is celebrating Christmas? Any party on that date? All merrymaking on December 25th shall be deemed a Christmas celebration? Because if that's it, my Jewish friend David needs to rethink his habit of celebrating his birthday ON his birthday, which happens to be December 25th.
Generally speaking, Christmas is a Holiday celebrated by religious and non-religious people alike. Christmas is not a holiday of only one religion. Christmas IS a holiday that is celebrated in MANY different countries - worldwide.
It seems that those who oppose Christmas displays, or using the word CHRISTMAS (make it "winter soltace" play) are afraid of anything that is connected to religion or a God of any type.
If people want to put up displays celebrating the holiday known as Christmas - let them. It is hurting NO ONE.
When that happens, that's when you respond with my tagline... "AND MAY SATAN ROCK YOU AS WELL!!! HAIL TO SATAN".
They don't like that very much.
To me it's the same thing as telling someone "Have a blessed day" or "God Bless You"
Alternatley "MAY PRAISE BE TO ALLAH!"
They don't like that very much either.
Seriously, you just made me snort coffee up my nose, you blasphemer! I'm going to sue! I just wanted to thank you for the laugh, sometimes you gotta laugh at life or you will go crazy.
I think as far as Jesus ornimentation goes, GOD is still in the pledge of allegience also recited in schools (few religious acceptions noted)...
Religious exceptions such as that for the Jehovah's Witnesses were set at a time when the Pledge made no reference to any god at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojoeswife
...but true Christmas is a Christian holiday- the celebration of Christ the greatest and most important gift GOD has ever given to human kind outside of life itsself.......
That's just wonderful, and many people believe that. Many people don't believe a word of it. Ties do not go to the Christian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojoeswife
Do you all realize that this counrty was founded on the premise of freedom of religion not freedom from religion......
Completely wrong. Without freedom FROM religion, there is no freedom OF religion. This is why the state may not prefer any religion over another, or religion over non-religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojoeswife
...our money old and new quotes "in GOD we trust" from the foundation of this country....
The phrase has appeared on paper currency since the Red Scare year of 1956. It had periodically appeared on coinage as early as the Civil War era. So had phrases such as "Mind Your Business". We might have been better off having held onto that one...
Generally speaking, Christmas is a Holiday celebrated by religious and non-religious people alike. Christmas is not a holiday of only one religion. Christmas IS a holiday that is celebrated in MANY different countries - worldwide.
It seems that those who oppose Christmas displays, or using the word CHRISTMAS (make it "winter soltace" play) are afraid of anything that is connected to religion or a God of any type.
If people want to put up displays celebrating the holiday known as Christmas - let them. It is hurting NO ONE.
Again, no one cares if displays are put up, as long as our tax dollars are not paying for them.
Again, no one cares if displays are put up, as long as our tax dollars are not paying for them.
Actually - that's not true.
There are many examples, from all over the country, where a group - for example, a church, wants to put up the Nativity scene in a public park - or at the court house or ....... They will pay for it. Yet, they are told they cannot put it up because of the "religion" thing.
In many areas, schools can no longer have "Christmas Pageants".
In that case...
If a public display place, on city or town property, is created, where a menorah and a tree, and whatever other symbols are allowed to be placed, does the state then have any right to dictate exactly WHICH symbols are allowed or not allowed?
Only to the extent that the speech represented by the symbol could be restrained under other circumstances. A state essentially gives up its editorial rights over the content of a public forum, save to the extent that limits would be imposed in any other such forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Keegan
If the municipality acknowledges that, among other holidays being represented by various symbols and representations, Christmas will be represented with a decorated tree, can they really be allowed to outlaw a painted image of Jesus on that decorated tree?
You are confusing two cases. An image of Jesus can be displayed in a public forum area. Where a state or the agency of a state chooses to erect holiday displays that are on public property NOT designated as a public forum, no form of favoritism toward any particular religion -- including that of Jesus -- may be so much as reasonably inferrable.
People are not insisting the government represent us, it is quite the opposite. What usually happens in this is someone puts up a display and others insist it be taken down. Forcing the removal is a violation of the constitution. The government has no right to enforce such and demanding the removal by official sanction IS using the government to dictate as such to which it has no powers to do there by stated in the constitution.
Yeah, well - in real life, government has authority to regulate what is erected on public grounds - there's no get-out-of-jail-card for religious displays. You can't build a church (or druidic temple) on the Washington Mall, either. Not yours.
Some could argue they feel the same way about homosexuality. So please- keep it in your home, in your private areas or private clubs -anyplace that is private property. Government -owned property is the wrong place for homosexual conduct.
Why are Christians SO OBSESSED with homosexuality, so much so, that it must be dragged into every topic, no matter how inappropriate? Homosexuality has always existed(just like heterosexuality), and it always will. Please come to terms with this so we don't have to derail every thread rehashing it. NOBODY wants Christians to give up Christ during Christmas, that is ludacris. Gov't officials are just respecting the separation between chruch and state as per a document otherwise known as the Constitution. Celebrate, worship however you see fit, just keep it off public(ie. gov't) property. You don't want me errecting a giant 5 pointed star in front of city hall on Samhain, so please don't put an overtly reigious symbol on gov't property on Christmas. It's really quite simple.
Saganista, Bill Keegan:
I pose this question to the both of you. What would you think if the city erected a sculpture of a swastika on government property?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Keegan
Is Naziism now a religion, that it needs to be allowed the same exercise as Christianity, Judaism, Hiduism, Atheism, etc?
I would agree in this case with BK. While it does appear in the iconogrphy of some backwater sects, a swastika is not recognized as a religious symbol, hence the propriety of its display could not be either justified or prevented on Establishment or Free Exercise grounds.
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Thanks for the laugh!
