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When the Christmas tree is put on government property - which is paid for by ALL citizens - it becomes a seasonal decoration that is owned by all citizens, Christian and non-Christian alike and it shouldn't be used for proselytizing.
You can hang Jesus all over your home Christmas tree or you church Christmas tree - nobody is forcing you to remove Christ from Christmas. More hyperbole from the religious right....
When you walk on public property, are you owned by everyone and therefore can have your speech regulated by everyone? I think you have your concepts mixed up. You can not prohibit the free exercise of religion on public property. The government has no say on such, the government can not establish a religion (such as was the case with England) and they can not restrict it. The fact is, the public has no say in an individuals freedom of expression.
If I put up a cross on public property, you have no say over it. It is not an establishment of such, it is me exercising my freedom of religion. You can put up what you like, but the fact remains that you have no say in my free use of such just as you have no say in what I can say on public property.
When you walk on public property, are you owned by everyone and therefore can have your speech regulated by everyone? I think you have your concepts mixed up. You can not prohibit the free exercise of religion on public property. The government has no say on such, the government can not establish a religion (such as was the case with England) and they can not restrict it. The fact is, the public has no say in an individuals freedom of expression.
If I put up a cross on public property, you have no say over it. It is not an establishment of such, it is me exercising my freedom of religion. You can put up what you like, but the fact remains that you have no say in my free use of such just as you have no say in what I can say on public property.
Go ahead and try to put up a cross on government property. Let me know how it turns out....
And in my nearly six decades of life, I have never seen such an attempt. Keeping religion separate from government (and vice versa) ensures that the people being governed are free to believe and worship however they wish. But insisting that your beliefs must be represented in a government holiday display is simply another way of insisting that the entire country must believe as you do. If you want to keep your freedom of religion, then you simply have to allow others to be free from your religion.
People are not insisting the government represent us, it is quite the opposite. What usually happens in this is someone puts up a display and others insist it be taken down. Forcing the removal is a violation of the constitution. The government has no right to enforce such and demanding the removal by official sanction IS using the government to dictate as such to which it has no powers to do there by stated in the constitution.
You do not have the freedom to regulate such. You can disagree all you like, but the government has no jurisdiction in such matters. They are not to establish it and a person putting up a display on public property that is christian is not establishing it.
Now if it were put up and the government legislated law that people must visit this display and pray at it on every Sunday, then that would be the government establishing a religious doctrinal process and would be a violation of the constitution just like the government mandating that no religious act or display be present on government property is also a violation of the Constitution.
Go ahead and try to put up a cross on government property. Let me know how it turns out....
Evasion of the issue, the fact that this may result in people violating the constitution in its removal does not support your argument. Just like me saying that if every time you tried to speak freely in public would result in you being bound and gagged would not validate that free speech can be suppressed.
This very topic is about how Christianity is oppressed by misuse of the Constitution and the powers afforded to the government to which the restriction of such free exercise is a violation of the Constitution.
I think as far as Jesus ornimentation goes, GOD is still in the pledge of allegience also recited in schools (few religious acceptions noted) but true Christmas is a Christian holiday- the celebration of Christ the greatest and most important gift GOD has ever given to human kind outside of life itsself.......
I agree that holidays have become little more than beat the Jones's spending sprees. Do you all realize that this counrty was founded on the premise of freedom of religion not freedom from religion...... our money old and new quotes "in GOD we trust" from the foundation of this country there were things woth fighting for- our right to believe in GOD how and when and where we please was one of those most basic and precious rights. No matter what you believe, you all have a GOD given right to be happy....................
There was no mention of God in the original Pledge of Allegiance. Christmas may have begun as a Christian religious holiday, but if you are honest, you will be able to see that to many people, especially in this country, it has become more and more a holiday of conspicuous consumption, whether they are Christian or not. And about that 'freedom of not from' thing - how can you have freedom of religion without also having the freedom not to have someone else's religion shoved down your throat? Freedom of religion must also contain freedom from religion in order to work. "In God We Trust" never was on our money - coins or currency - until nearly a century after the country was founded.
Celebrate all you want - in your home, in your private schools, in your churches - anyplace that is private property. Government-owned property is the wrong place for religious symbols.
then that should also include anything to do with enviromentalism as well.
The Assistant Principal removed one sign and told the students in the club to remove the other one because students might be offended by the signs. She said that new signs could be put up if they did not include Jesus’ name, although the signs could include the word “Bible.”
Actually, I agree that the Assistant Principal was wrong in this case. Too many misconstrue the injunction against the public schools endorsing religion to mean they shouldn't allow the students to show a preference for or even mention any religious beliefs.
I don't demand to wish or be wished anything. This isn't about me. It's about CHRISTmas. CHRISTMAS is in fact a CHRISTIAN holiday. Do you not pay attention to the words?
This is the same sort of restrictively narrow dictionary-worship as got you painted into a corner re the meaning of atheism. There is nothing Christian or so much as religious about any of the trappings of the Christmas holiday, save for any such church-going or independent Christ-child adoration that a particular individual or family might choose to include as part of the celebrations. Leave all of that out and you still have a celebration of the Christmas holiday, just as much as if you had omitted mistletoe or football or having turkey or ham for dinner. This is why the words Merry Christmas have any general utility or application at all. Let's face it -- the majority of Americans will not include ANY sort of actual Christian religious observation in their holidays, and many of those who do will go no further than perfunctory engagement in a momentarily distractive act such as reciting some sort of grace before the Christmas meal.
As has been noted in this thread, the celebration of Christmas in America is not principally of religious origin. Its roots lie much more in reformism, culture envy, and commercialism. Claiming that Christmas is an exclusive and proprietary holiday open only to professed Christians -- and maybe not even to the less devout of those -- is in fact a pompous, arrogant, and counter-historical act. I repeat -- your holiday is not special, your religion is not special, and you are not special because your belief in or practice of either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Keegan
But you can't tell those who celebrate CHRISTMAS that it's not about CHRIST, or demand that they stop trying to make it about CHRIST. That IS what it's about.
That is what it is about for YOU, and no one is demanding that you alter your version of the holiday at all. Except insofar as you celebrate it annually by trying to take it away from others whose beliefs or non-beliefs you judge to be inferior to your own.
Evasion of the issue, the fact that this may result in people violating the constitution in its removal does not support your argument. Just like me saying that if every time you tried to speak freely in public would result in you being bound and gagged would not validate that free speech can be suppressed.
This very topic is about how Christianity is oppressed by misuse of the Constitution and the powers afforded to the government to which the restriction of such free exercise is a violation of the Constitution.
The courts disagree with you: Regarding the CA case that is currently being heard by the SCOTUS:
Quote:
The display of the cross on public property had already been found in violation of the Establishment Clause, http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2009/10/supreme-court-hears-arguments-in-first.php
I disagree with you re Christianity being oppressed. Until recent years, Christianity had been allowed to become the de facto religion of the US. IMO, Christianity is now simply taking its rightful place in the pantheon of religions that exist within the borders of the US. It is no more and no less important a religion than the many others that may be practiced by the citizens of this country.
But you can't tell those who celebrate CHRISTMAS that it's not about CHRIST, or demand that they stop trying to make it about CHRIST. That IS what it's about.
No one is telling Christians not to make Christmas about Christ. What I get from all of this is that those who don't believe in Christ are merely asking that Christians not 'shove Him down their throats' and allow them to celebrate this time of year in their own way.
Oh, BTW, in case anyone doesn't get it - I AM Christian; I celebrate Christmas as the birthday of Jesus and have a large nativity creche that I display in my home. I just don't believe that it's necessary to insist that my friends and neighbors also celebrate for the reasons I do.
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