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Why is that whenever something is proposed to help a segment of the population the other segment i.e folks who are relatively well off are the loudest to complain? People with healthcare benefits are the most vocal against the current bill while people who will actually benefit from it are virtually silent. This bill is a good idea for those of us who are suffering with other bills on top of having a student loan to boot. Just because it may not benefit you, why trash it entirely? Many of you are incrediblely self centered, many of you bring up the national debt as if you have to pay for it personally.....idoits! There was a national debt before you were born and there will be one after you die so why make a fuss about it now? It did not cross anyones mind when millions of dollars disapeared in IRAQ during the war that is still unaccounted for. Where was the noise when companies that made outrageous profits through no bid contracts during the war and than moved their company out of the country .......can you hear me haliburton? I understand that the president can't make everyone happy all of the time but at least he is trying. The issues that he is trying to correct or at least make better were not even mentioned in the last 8 years, but I guess that was o.k. I don't blame him for trying but I do blame the dumbocrats for not supporting him like the sheep that followed bush. The repulsicans feel that their job is to discredit EVERYTHING that Obama suggest and not to help the american people who voted the knuckleheads in the first place. The Supremes actually supported the buying (or at least renting) national policy through the constantly for sale politicians who by the way are already wealthy and have the BEST healthcare coverage in the country.
Just something to think about
(stepping off of my soapbox)
Computer science, engineering, health careers, and other mathematically strong degrees are expanding rapidly, and will for a long time. My view- oversimplified but generally fair- is that previous economies were so damn good short-term that even the relatively unskilled dummies could parlay their way into upper middle-class stability with a college degree. You get your "management trainee" gig or whatever it is, and the massive beast of consumerism drives your mediocre company to the top. Now, those jobs are gone. Corporations don't have room for psuedo-sales/marketing/nothingness unskilled social science majors who weren't smart enough to handle math. They need raw talent now; they need people who have the capacity to push the company forward into the 21st century.
Have to disagree here...engineering majors are among some of the most disproportionately undercompensated of all college degree holders. Right there after Law degree holders. Engineering majors are actually having their jobs outsourced at some of the fastest rates of all workers...especially computer engineer majors. This doesnt account for the little known fact that there are a more than enough engineers working as stockers at Wal Mart.
What happens is a reputable corporation will hire the ONE OR TWO token American engineering degree holders. The corporations can smell the eagerness and the kisses of entitlement that school kids think comes with their engineering status. They will sign them for what looks like a large starting salary, though the amount of debt they have is equal to or more than their yearly salary.
Anyway, they'll hire their one or two token American degree holders. Eager Johnny thinks he's a big time engineer now, and tells himself "Ahhh, this is what I worked so hard for...see there, I told all of those Liberal Arts majors they were wasting their time...hahaha.."
Sounds good so far right?...Well about three or four years into your engineering career, you'll be asked to go overseas (likely to Asia, or India), in this particular case its India. You'll be told that this is your "opportunity to travel" and they will tell you that "Because you are just SOOO good at what you do" you will be sent overseas to "train" people at the satellite branch of your company. You go, you train two or three people to do your job...(Essentially, you train others how to read and interpret the same engineering protocol manual that you use each day.) You have just helped to outsource your job at the age of 30. You are now dispensable, and your job is now able to be easily auctioned off for half as much as you are being paid, in return for three workers halfway around the world.
Lets look at computer science shall we?...Ah yes the good ol catch all "Computer Science" degree...well, that sounds just dandy until you realize that your only options are to work for the govt, as corporations can all hire "Computer Scientists" for much cheaper and who, dare I say, will do the job better than you overseas. More than likely as a "Computer Scientist" you'll end up working in the company basement right alongside the old disheveled company engineer. Neither of you will have much contact with your colleagues because your entire position is contingent on a computer monitor.
Not that math or science degrees are worthless, but lets be honest here, anybody can do math..hardly anyone likes to, but with enough effort anyone can. A quote from this interesting article I read puts it best:
"The fact is that practically any motivated person can eventually get any degree they want, if they're willing to put in the years."
oh no you didn't. I was a law firm librarian for 10 years and every job I applied for required the masters degree. In library school, we were one of the first professions that knew the importance of being able to cull information from the thousands of resources that are available in both print and online. Librarians "got" the importance of the intenet when it was still being called the NREN and we were on the front lines to train people to use the resources and be able to sift through the vendors and databases they were trying to sell us.
Francis Bacon said it correct all those years ago, information is power and it provided me with a hefty paycheck during the dot com boom and my experience working in mergers and acquisitions, IPO's and international law translated into a nice career as a legal research professor.
I couldn't have gotten those jobs without my masters.
But, alas, it's so typical ... librarians are easy targets ... not this one.
oh, and I paid off my student loans and I would never expected loan forgiveness, neither did any of my collegues. To presume that librarians, first of all, don't need a masters degree and then to presume that we would be first in line to get a gimme from Obama speaks very little of you.
For most of these loans, the government makes the money up out of thin air (either electronically, or by printing more worthless paper). I don't have a big problem with this proposal.
Why not home loans, that are forgiven after ten years, but only if you work for the government?
oh no you didn't. I was a law firm librarian for 10 years and every job I applied for required the masters degree. In library school, we were one of the first professions that knew the importance of being able to cull information from the thousands of resources that are available in both print and online. Librarians "got" the importance of the intenet when it was still being called the NREN and we were on the front lines to train people to use the resources and be able to sift through the vendors and databases they were trying to sell us.
Francis Bacon said it correct all those years ago, information is power and it provided me with a hefty paycheck during the dot com boom and my experience working in mergers and acquisitions, IPO's and international law translated into a nice career as a legal research professor.
I couldn't have gotten those jobs without my masters.
But, alas, it's so typical ... librarians are easy targets ... not this one.
oh, and I paid off my student loans and I would never expected loan forgiveness, neither did any of my collegues. To presume that librarians, first of all, don't need a masters degree and then to presume that we would be first in line to get a gimme from Obama speaks very little of you.
I don't disagree with you at all in the amount of information librarians need to perform their job. My problem is in our educational system itself. I think we should become more focused and streamline our education and cut out the stuff that really doesn't matter. We should get rid of the bs/ms combo's altogether and make the program a 4 or 5 year program without all the silly gen ed requirements that just add to the length of time it takes. They would start taking classes specifically for their major as a freshman. There's no reason for someone pursuing a degree in finance or marketing for example to need to take the token foreign language or sociology class.
We could lower the cost of degrees and cut down the time it takes to earn them.
was a librarian mean to you or something? seriously, what does someone wanting to get a masters in library and information science affect your life???
The issue is WE DONT WANT TO PAY FOR SOMEBODY ELSE'S EDUCATION!!!!!!!!!!. And that is exactly what this bill that Obama wants to pass will do, if the studen waits long enough to pay it off. Geezus this is not that hard. Maybe you should take some basic math classes.
I could care less what you get a degree in, just dont make me pay for it. I paid for every penny of my 4 year degree.
Have to disagree here...engineering majors are among some of the most disproportionately undercompensated of all college degree holders.
What do you base this on? Engineers almost universally hold strong as the highest paying college major, both out of the gate and long-term.
most-lucrative-college-degrees.html: Personal Finance News from Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/college-education/article/107402/most-lucrative-college-degrees.html?mod=edu-collegeprepRight - broken link) there after Law degree holders.[/quote]
Disagree with this as well. The law thing is pretty cut and dry: If you don't get into a tier one, you're taking a big, big chance. If you get into a tier one and finish in the top 20 percent, you can probably make six figs right out of the gate if you interview well. This of course assumes that you want to do suicide-inducing work for a living (for me), but alas it's there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire
Engineering majors are actually having their jobs outsourced at some of the fastest rates of all workers...especially computer engineer majors. This doesnt account for the little known fact that there are a more than enough engineers working as stockers at Wal Mart.
That's not true based on what I have read. Code monkey's and baseline regurgitation jobs are going to India, not serious computer engineering and computer science, in mass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire
What happens is a reputable corporation will hire the ONE OR TWO token American engineering degree holders. The corporations can smell the eagerness and the kisses of entitlement that school kids think comes with their engineering status. They will sign them for what looks like a large starting salary, though the amount of debt they have is equal to or more than their yearly salary.
Anyway, they'll hire their one or two token American degree holders. Eager Johnny thinks he's a big time engineer now, and tells himself "Ahhh, this is what I worked so hard for...see there, I told all of those Liberal Arts majors they were wasting their time...hahaha.."
Sounds good so far right?...Well about three or four years into your engineering career, you'll be asked to go overseas (likely to Asia, or India), in this particular case its India. You'll be told that this is your "opportunity to travel" and they will tell you that "Because you are just SOOO good at what you do" you will be sent overseas to "train" people at the satellite branch of your company. You go, you train two or three people to do your job...(Essentially, you train others how to read and interpret the same engineering protocol manual that you use each day.) You have just helped to outsource your job at the age of 30. You are now dispensable, and your job is now able to be easily auctioned off for half as much as you are being paid, in return for three workers halfway around the world.
It simply isn't happening in mass, or even in considerable part, for computer science majors nor engineers based on what I have read. I would love to see some stats here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire
Lets look at computer science shall we?...Ah yes the good ol catch all "Computer Science" degree...well, that sounds just dandy until you realize that your only options are to work for the govt, as corporations can all hire "Computer Scientists" for much cheaper and who, dare I say, will do the job better than you overseas. More than likely as a "Computer Scientist" you'll end up working in the company basement right alongside the old disheveled company engineer. Neither of you will have much contact with your colleagues because your entire position is contingent on a computer monitor.
That's ridiculous patently false. First, comp scy majors across-the-board have a starting salary average of 54K, with an overall average salary in the mid-70's. More importantly, I don't think you understand what computer science majors do based on your description. Computer science has little to do with computers in most employment situations; it is a way of solving problems, in a sense. A computer science bachelor's of science is much different than an associates degree in information systems, etc. which is more what you are describing. At my alumni job fair there were over 20 corporations on campus interviewing for comp scy majors; this is one of the most economically depressed sectors of the economy. It's a great major and jobs are everywhere in the private sector. Again, I don't mean to be rude but it appears to me you've created your own reality here. "The US economy is expected to add 1.5 million computer- and information-related jobs by 2012, while this country will have only half that many qualified graduates, according to one analysis of federal data."
Not that math or science degrees are worthless, but lets be honest here, anybody can do math..hardly anyone likes to, but with enough effort anyone can.
No. Everybody can do 101 calculus, but not everybody can do math. I'd bet a literally majority of college educated adults could not do high level calc if they dedicated their lives to it. It's incredibly difficult and requires a lot of intellectual talent in a variety of different ways. Math is, in general, the single biggest predictor of success in the new economy.
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