Has light rail been a mistake? (Portland: credit card, standard of living, floor)

[Bluesmama]

Originally Posted by Minervah

I rode the streetcar last Tuesday. A lot of people got on and didn't pay. Well, I suppose, like me, they all could have had TriMet passes.

I remember once I was riding the Max in from Kaiser in North Portland when a nice young couple came up to me asking about where they should get off to go to Piomeer Square. I told them and as we rode along they commented they could not believe that the MAX was free. I told them it was downtown but not where they got on.

They were shocked. They claimed they did not see the ticket machines or they would have paid. Pretty naive but I guess I could see how it could happen. If you are running for a train and not used to riding it and don't see any gates or turnstyles or ticket takers you might think that.

I am not certain about this, Minervah, but I don't think TriMet passes are allowable for the Streetcars. I know that the tickets weren't. Perhaps it has changed. (Anyone out there know for sure?)

I always found the Fareless Square concept a bit confusing.

[figmalt]

Trimet tickets work for the MAX, buses and streetcar (but not the tram).

[Minervah]

Originally Posted by Bluesmama

I am not certain about this, Minervah, but I don't think TriMet passes are allowable for the Streetcars. I know that the tickets weren't. Perhaps it has changed. (Anyone out there know for sure?)

I always found the Fareless Square concept a bit confusing.

Well if that's the case I am in trouble. I have never paid to ride the streetcar because I always thought my pass took care of the fare. I had better go onto Tri Met's web site and see if I owe them money.

[Minervah]

Using a pass or bus transfer receipt

If you have a TriMet pass, bus transfer receipt or Streetcar Annual Pass, just board the Streetcar and have a seat. (Check the time torn at the top of your transfer; you may board until that time.)

This is from the TriMet website. Whew, guess I'm safe!

[Bluesmama]

Originally Posted by Minervah

Well if that's the case I am in trouble. I have never paid to ride the streetcar because I always thought my pass took care of the fare. I had better go onto Tri Met's web site and see if I owe them money.

Actually, I think figmalt is right. I decided to check the TriMet site after my last post on here.

I do believe that Tri-Met passes and tickets were not accepted in it's early years but it probably created so much confusion that they decided to partnership with the Streetcars. It was a good decision.

[Leisesturm]

The obsession with fare evasion continues. Some will not be happy until Trimet invests tens of millions in hardening the system against fare evaders so they can feel justified in being law abiding. That, IMO would be a mistake. Trimet copied a European 'honor system' model when building their system and given the size and scope of the MAX system any other approach would be fiscal insanity. Since the chief proponent of a new "War on Error" waged on the Trimet ridership has ignored my repeated requests for a ballpark figure on revenue loss due to the practice of fare evasion I had to do it myself. Here, look at this. It's the best I was able to do. It says what I suspected: fare evasion happens at an estimated 5% through most of the system except for anomalous stations like the Rose Quarter station where it can be 15%. How much capital do you think Trimet should expend to capture that lost income? Don't worry, I'm not holding my breath for an answer.

H

[davemess10]

Originally Posted by figmalt

Trimet tickets work for the MAX, buses and streetcar (but not the tram).

unless you have a Trimet pass on you OHSU ID

[puerco]

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

The obsession with fare evasion continues. Some will not be happy until Trimet invests tens of millions in hardening the system against fare evaders so they can feel justified in being law abiding. That, IMO would be a mistake. Trimet copied a European 'honor system' model when building their system and given the size and scope of the MAX system any other approach would be fiscal insanity. Since the chief proponent of a new "War on Error" waged on the Trimet ridership has ignored my repeated requests for a ballpark figure on revenue loss due to the practice of fare evasion I had to do it myself. Here, look at this. It's the best I was able to do. It says what I suspected: fare evasion happens at an estimated 5% through most of the system except for anomalous stations like the Rose Quarter station where it can be 15%. How much capital do you think Trimet should expend to capture that lost income? Don't worry, I'm not holding my breath for an answer.

H

The Tijuana Trolley has had honor system ticketing, too, ever since it opened. The fact is, the majority of us are honest & don't mind paying for the service provided. "Obsession with fare evasion" is right. I don't get it, either, but some of the posters seem determined to find ANYTHING to discredit a light rail system they don't even use.

[Bluesmama]

Oh, don't worry ~ the current fare-paying system will NOT change because it can't. Not unless they want to staff fare inspectors at every door ~ which they CAN do if they want to pay for the manpower.

And considering that the current "system" of drop-in-unexpected fare inspectors always bust a couple of non-ticketed riders, most of those riders get fined. How the fines are handled, I've no clue. But the cost to those riders are likely a lot more in the long run for their sneak rides.

But I find your nonchalant attitudes towards non-paying ticket riders quite disturbing. There should be none of this "most are paying". Everybody should pay.

[davemess10]

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

The obsession with fare evasion continues. Some will not be happy until Trimet invests tens of millions in hardening the system against fare evaders so they can feel justified in being law abiding. That, IMO would be a mistake. Trimet copied a European 'honor system' model when building their system and given the size and scope of the MAX system any other approach would be fiscal insanity. Since the chief proponent of a new "War on Error" waged on the Trimet ridership has ignored my repeated requests for a ballpark figure on revenue loss due to the practice of fare evasion I had to do it myself. Here, look at this. It's the best I was able to do. It says what I suspected: fare evasion happens at an estimated 5% through most of the system except for anomalous stations like the Rose Quarter station where it can be 15%. How much capital do you think Trimet should expend to capture that lost income? Don't worry, I'm not holding my breath for an answer.
H

That's not exactly what it said. The authors stated they thought the Rose Quarter station was "probably" higher fare evasion than other places, but the 5% figure you and they refer to is over 12 years old. So there really is no "current" estimate to make that statement.

Did you miss this?
"The estimated $10,511.44 of light rail weekly revenue lost due to fare evasion represents about 20% of estimated outbound MAX fare receipts at the Rose Quarter. As expected, fare losses associated with outbound bus revenues are measurably less at $3,522.99, though still considerable at roughly 8% of the estimated total outbound bus fare revenue."

20% is a decent percentage of revenue lost (and if you look at the prices of the MAX tickets (aren't they double that now), you're talking about much more money today, although I assume the percentage is probably similar), and you can see the difference (60%) of fare evasion between bus and MAX.

IF TriMet is losing 20% of it's potentials fares on the MAX, does this sway your opinion?

I am a strong supporter of mass transit and like the MAX system. I'm not arguing with you over the merits of light rail. I just don't think you read your own sources completely.

I've traveled all over the world, and be on transit in many countries, and have never before come across the honor system like they have here for MAX. I'm to new to say if it's working or not. I just find it kind of odd, and could completely commiserate with the elder couple referred to previously who didn't know they had to pay for the train. If you're coming from Chicago, Boston, NYC, or many other places, you would see no turnstyles and just get on.