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I rarely hear women make fun of men for not being men. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but I see it much more from guys. It's usually men who accuse other men of "throwing like a girl" or "running like a girl" and I'm sure if you did a search on who throws the term "mangina" around on this forum, it wouldn't be the women. I think that's what 2mares is saying when she says that men can be their own worst enemy in that regard.
All due respect, US, you do tend to sound bitter on these gender threads a lot, and you seem to always have to have the last word, especially when you're debating with women.
Ya know, Fleets, I'll say something here and it will be the last thing I say on the matter, whatever anyone else says.
We've got this guy here, ME... and this guy comes in here and makes some pretty astute observations on a broad array of topics. Not everyone always agrees with him but it's probably agreed that at least he's not talking out his arse every step of the way.
When things regarding intergender activities come up he says things which clearly express that he believes in equality across the board as much as possible. He even cites pros and cons for efforts toward such equality on occasion.
When threads come up about "real women" and "real men" he states that with the exception of certain physical realities, so far as he can tell "real women" are the same as "real men", wanting things like dignity, a sense of purpose, respect.
Housewives: I recall a pretty detailed post on why being a housewife really DOES equal "meaningful job".
Women in the workforce: Posts about how women are perfectly capable of nearly everything a man is which doesn't require brute strength yet can't be handled by a machine.
What makes a beautiful woman: Lists of qualities which not only indicate that he's not a guy whose whole outlook on women is centered on physical appearance, but also draw several comments from women on how his outlook is refreshing, vivid, thoughtful and truly appreciative of REAL qualities in women.
But once in a while he suggests that some women do some pretty nasty things to men. He never argues or suggests that men don't also do some nasty things to women; but when the topic comes up, he tries to make a point that yeah, some women and most especially, some avid Feminists make some sweeping and dismissive moves toward men.
And that makes him "bitter" and "negative" when it comes to inter-gender threads and let's all face it, he's just dead WRONG, women aren't like that, it's just male whining.
Hmm...
What is wrong with this picture? Because I'm thinking it just might NOT be that he's Mr. Negative who has a warped view of women and is spouting lies and misconceptions which have no foundation in anything resembling truth.
I read the same post you did, and never saw a lament about entitlement at all. What do you think she believes she is entitled to? Also, I did not see a lack of empathy with men. It is hard to believe we read the same thing. Maybe you projected your own experiences onto the OP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by le roi
I claimed that feminism makes a habit of ignoring what men want, not that I could explain to you two how to make your husband or boyfriend happy.
the mindset I saw from the OP was a failure to empathize with men, and her lamenting about some entitlement that she was supposed to get.
Le Roi, I am the OP and shared info about myself to clarify my position. Again, my dad influenced the way I am -- to be pragmatic and be able to take care of myself. Not sure why you sensed "lamenting over a sense of entitlement" from my post.
Anyway, experience has taught me that men are all quite different and their expectations of women are shaped by the women around them. For example, the man whose mom doesn't drive, enjoys cooking, shopping, decorating, and entertaining is very different from the man whose mom attended grad school and won't spend a dime unless it's for a practical purpose. Man #1 expected to be pampered. Man #2 didn't.
As I said earlier, if I could do it over, I would have asked my dad to teach me what qualities I needed to bring to a relationship instead learning how to survive without one.
So please share ... what is it that women need to be empathetic about that we're missing?
So please share ... what is it that women need to be empathetic about that we're missing?
we who?
anyways i'm the last person to ask. i don't really care how to please men and make them happy, i am more interested in women. that's a question to ask women who have been married for 40 years.
i do have one idea, though, which is that as a man i seem to find it sexy when a woman is vulnerable and weak, but only sometimes. it is complicated, but some women have it and some women don't. feminists chronically don't.
Anyway, experience has taught me that men are all quite different and their expectations of women are shaped by the women around them. For example, the man whose mom doesn't drive, enjoys cooking, shopping, decorating, and entertaining is very different from the man whose mom attended grad school and won't spend a dime unless it's for a practical purpose. Man #1 expected to be pampered. Man #2 didn't.
Yes. I think mothers have a great deal to do with their son's expectations. When they drag their daughters into the kitchen on Thanksgiving and leave the boys to watch tv, it teaches them something. Women (and many of them - even the 'modern' ones - have admitted this to me) tend to pamper their sons more in terms of chores, cooking, etc. So of course the guy goes on to his next major relationship expecting this from his wife. When he doesn't get it, why wouldn't he think she is some cold, selfish, ball-busting b*tch?
And other women, too. Like their sisters, aunts, etc. If they see them competing in sports, excelling in school, fixing cars...these guys are less likely to expect some subservient damsel in distress as well.
Le Roi, I am the OP and shared info about myself to clarify my position. Again, my dad influenced the way I am -- to be pragmatic and be able to take care of myself. Not sure why you sensed "lamenting over a sense of entitlement" from my post.
Anyway, experience has taught me that men are all quite different and their expectations of women are shaped by the women around them. For example, the man whose mom doesn't drive, enjoys cooking, shopping, decorating, and entertaining is very different from the man whose mom attended grad school and won't spend a dime unless it's for a practical purpose. Man #1 expected to be pampered. Man #2 didn't.
As I said earlier, if I could do it over, I would have asked my dad to teach me what qualities I needed to bring to a relationship instead learning how to survive without one.
So please share ... what is it that women need to be empathetic about that we're missing?
Being one of CD's resident feminists, my advice will probably provoke some rancor, but for what it's worth, here is what I think:
I think you should worry less about what men in general supposedly want or expect, or the wants and expectations of men you are "supposed to" like, and more on the wants of men you actually like. But above all, as someone who (I assume) isn't yet married or in a marriage-like relationship, you should concentrate on building your life independent of any hypothetical future relationship.
Shakespeare wrote, "To thine own self be true." It's great relationship advice if you think about it. Be true to yourself. Know who you are, and know what you are not. Don't try to force yourself into a mold at the expense of cutting off your limbs and your head. Know your weaknesses, your preferences, your likes and dislikes, what your can or cannot put up with.
In a long-term relationship, be kind and attentive to your partner. It doesn't mean waiting on him hand-and-foot; it means never trivializing things that are important to him, even if you yourself are indifferent to them. If he has a dream, and it's a realistic dream, do as much as you can to help make it happen. But stay away from men who expect you to drop everything and exist solely to enable them, without regard to any of your own needs or wants other than those of basic survival. Stay away from men who trivialize things that are important to you and who don't give two ****s what your dreams and aspirations are.
No one can "have it all" -- NO ONE. We all have to compromise, accommodate each other and adjust our aspirations and plans to fit circumstances that are beyond our control. But good partners help each other have as much as they can. The fact that you can't have it all doesn't mean you should have nothing, or that you should have something that someone else decided you should have, even if it's not what you are in your heart of hearts -- and you should give men the same benefit. Don't live vicariously; most likely, you won't get any credit for it anyway, and though some women claim that they like living this way, I think it requires a degree of self-suppression that's absolutely crushing to most people.
Don't try to be something you are not. And if someone tells you that accomplishing something on your own and following your dreams means you'll die a bitter old maid and no one will ever love you -- rest assured it's a big, fat lie.
As we debate on this board about why women are single past 30, that men want nurturers -- not career gals, that being 20-something guarantees success in a relationship more than being 40-something, I wonder if in 2010 we've really advanced much more than we were in 1965.
So if a man wants a nurturing woman, that means he "hasn't advanced"? This perspective is perplexing on several levels, but by defining non-nurturing positively as "advancement" rather than neutrally as "change" it frames the issue in a way that trivializes a man's role in choosing what is good for him. It carries an implicit judgement against a guy doing what is best for him.
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Are women again being forced to choose between husbands and children vs. careers?
Forced! haha. right, like someone is putting a gun to your head. it's like saying i'm forced to go to work, as if real justice would be winning the lottery instead.
A less-entitled attitude is more along the lines of: "Gosh I'm so thankful that if I work hard and make smart choices, I can have the option to have a career, a husband, and children."
so we change it to: if a man wants a nurturing woman, that means society's expectations of women haven't advanced.
same difference; that still treats men's desire as something that needs to be eradicated.
i feel like maybe i'm not speaking your language. replace "a nurturing woman" with "glorious breasts" and see if any of your statements make sense. my point here is not to define what men want, rather just to point out that you can't magically get rid of it by calling it a function of society.
Being one of CD's resident feminists, my advice will probably provoke some rancor, but for what it's worth, here is what I think:
I think you should worry less about what men in general supposedly want or expect, or the wants and expectations of men you are "supposed to" like, and more on the wants of men you actually like.
Actually, I am seeing a societal shift that isn't limited to how men view this. Caveat: These are my observations.
There are women who are able to be SAHMs by virtue of their husband's wealth and some are very cavalier about it -- judging those who don't with no knowledge of their personal circumstances. To me, this is reminiscent of the early 60s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca
In a long-term relationship, be kind and attentive to your partner. It doesn't mean waiting on him hand-and-foot; it means never trivializing things that are important to him, even if you yourself are indifferent to them. If he has a dream, and it's a realistic dream, do as much as you can to help make it happen. But stay away from men who expect you to drop everything and exist solely to enable them, without regard to any of your own needs or wants other than those of basic survival. Stay away from men who trivialize things that are important to you and who don't give two ****s what your dreams and aspirations are.
Agreed. It is very hard to support the other without replenishing yourself. Been there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca
Don't try to be something you are not. And if someone tells you that accomplishing something on your own and following your dreams means you'll die a bitter old maid and no one will ever love you -- rest assured it's a big, fat lie.
It is interesting the number of people who make such statements in the C-D forums. Sometimes I think it's done just to get a rise out of people
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