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Her whole statement is valid and worth looking at; but the bolded portions, which make up the majority of it, are fairly telling.
If I'm wrong in this, please explain HOW.
Who do YOU hear make fun of men for being weak more, women or men? I love a caring man, one that can cook, one that is nurturing etc. etc. When I hear name calling, which I hardly ever do outside of my job, it is men that are ridiculing other men. I don't know why, but somehow you are not a poster I perceived as being bitter towards women or the women's movement. I guess I haven't read enough of your posts to know, but in this thread you come across as angry and bitter. Do you want it to be like in the old days where men were the boss or do you just want equality for all? I am a little confused about your stand. I would like for everyone to feel that they can do whatever they want and not have to worry about gender roles. From some of the things you have posted in the past I thought we were on the same page.
To be fair it may very well geographical or cultural. Keep in mind I live in the very pits of the redneck bible belt where the gender lines are still very visible so I am accustom to attitudes that men are expected to act a certain way and women are expected to act a certain way. I do see that there is more acceptance, sympathy or wiggle room (these days)for women who cross these lines, not so much with men. This might not be the case in Braunwyns world.
If Im understanding what is implied by ignoring what men want, it is that today it is accepted that women can fulfill a wide variety of roles, we can be vulnerable and strong, feminine and masculine, SAHMs or CEOs, but men are still ridiculed if they step outside that narrowly defined role. We, I think as a society not just women, do not give men the same support in expanding their roles and it is seen as trivializing. IMO men are actually limiting themselves due to their self perceived weakness. They are upset because women have made it to the point they can take on either or both traditional roles and men cant or wont because most don’t want to or they prevent themselves from it. This leaves both genders frustrated and sometimes not knowing how to deal with each other. I think Braunwyn has just never had to encounter this.
I'm reminded of a new hire in our department. He's an organic chemist, about my age, and has a strong background. He's looking for work now, and taking a contract gig, because for the past several years he's been a SAHD. His wife is/was an orthodontist in the military. They just got back home after being abroad and her tour is over. About 10 people interviewed him for the job and everybody knows his story. It was not an issue for anyone to the best of my knowledge. At most I thought 'how cool', for the travels, which I won't share here, and him being a SAHD. He's smart, nice, funny, and a good fit. It would be pretty shocking to witness any sneering over it.
Who do YOU hear make fun of men for being weak more, women or men? I love a caring man, one that can cook, one that is nurturing etc. etc. When I hear name calling, which I hardly ever do outside of my job, it is men that are ridiculing other men. I don't know why, but somehow you are not a poster I perceived as being bitter towards women or the women's movement. I guess I haven't read enough of your posts to know, but in this thread you come across as angry and bitter. Do you want it to be like in the old days where men were the boss or do you just want equality for all? I am a little confused about your stand. I would like for everyone to feel that they can do whatever they want and not have to worry about gender roles. From some of the things you have posted in the past I thought we were on the same page.
The reason you don't typically take me for bitter toward women is because I'm NOT. In answer to your query, I want equality for all, across the board, as much as humanly possible.
In posts about SAHM's and SAHD's, I state clearly that I'm all for both, so long as it works for the couple. I'm not above discussing societal pitfalls and shortcomings with regard to how they're publicly perceived, but I also say that society needs to get over itself.
In posts about jobs crossing gender, I state clearly that I'm all for people just getting over machismo OR prissiness, doing what they're capable of and/or good at without regard to gender. I'm not above stating that men will always be (with rare exceptions) generally better at jobs requiring a certain degree of physical strength, or that women have certain setbacks with regard to reproduction, but I also state that concessions need to be made as much as possible while staying realistic and productive.
Etc, etc, etc...
Where I tend to get miffed is when I see things which place the blame ALL on men, or ALL on women; and I get especially miffed when people play the denial game, as though it's ALL in the imagination of one gender or the other because *sniff* THEY never do such things, so fah-fah-fah, it simply doesn't happen!
It has been my observation, however, that neither men nor women LIKE to step even a single foot into the role of villain; and in the case of this discussion, the topic of female dismissal (correction: Feminist dismissal) of male issues came up and was followed by what amounts to a bunch of "Nuh-uhhhh!!!"
EDIT: Sorry, I forgot your first question.
As for who makes fun more -- I hear it just as much from men as women, just as much from women as men on a social level. It's when it gets to the socio-POLITICAL level men's issues are shouted down and women's issues still held up as giant barriers which must be overcome if ever we as a society are to move forward. It's why we have Women's Studies at the university level and no Men's Studies.
As do I -- which is what I stated in my very first post in this thread. Male vs female "roles" was never a point of contention for me, not ever. Most of the "role designations" are pretty stupid.
As for who makes fun more -- I hear it just as much from men as women, just as much from women as men on a social level.
I rarely hear women make fun of men for not being men. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but I see it much more from guys. It's usually men who accuse other men of "throwing like a girl" or "running like a girl" and I'm sure if you did a search on who throws the term "mangina" around on this forum, it wouldn't be the women. I think that's what 2mares is saying when she says that men can be their own worst enemy in that regard.
Quote:
The reason you don't typically take me for bitter toward women is because I'm NOT. In answer to your query, I want equality for all, across the board, as much as humanly possible.
All due respect, US, you do tend to sound bitter on these gender threads a lot, and you seem to always have to have the last word, especially when you're debating with women.
Last edited by fleetiebelle; 09-22-2010 at 02:41 PM..
Where I tend to get miffed is when I see things which place the blame ALL on men, or ALL on women; and I get especially miffed when people play the denial game, as though it's ALL in the imagination of one gender or the other because *sniff* THEY never do such things, so fah-fah-fah, it simply doesn't happen!
Nobody said it never happens. Who knows what happens to you. I certainly don't know. The point is that it, whatever it really is, doesn't happen to everyone; not everyone has the same experiences and values as you; not everyone has the same priorities, which I happen to think is a big part of this issue for a few of you.
He's talking about the way ANYTHING brought up as "what men want" -- without specifics or WITH specifics -- tends to get shoved aside.
Prime example: In another thread going in right now, one regarding a woman's sexual problems and proclivities (a particular woman, not "women") when it was revealed that the man in the scenario is embarrassed to attend counseling based on SEX, immediately two women dissed on him as both immature and a coward. NO mercy, no questioning as to why, they just went there instantly: Coward, lacking a pair, needing to grow up ("What is he, like 12? ")
Yet if a woman has any insecurity involving sex it's because "she needs understanding" or "she needs time" or "something has been done to her".
That kind of thing precisely, if you MUST have an example.
While I agree that men's emotional needs are frequently put down by men and women--be fair, please. That thread you mention, where the man needed to "grow a pair," nearly all of the responses regarding the woman were just as harsh. I don't recall anything particularly kind said about the woman at all, just that she needed to go to therapy and come out of the closet already. I don't think anyone even suggested that the two could live happily together or that the woman might find her way into a contented heterosexual relationship. Nobody suggested that she needs time or understanding, or that she could be recovering from a traumatic past. If you are going to hold up that thread as an example of how people treat men, be reasonable and look at the whole picture.
One of my male friends is very frustrated about gender roles and says that women have taken over male-dominated occupations but that men can't crossover the other way. So I mentioned that my job offers health career training for everyone. I just think he doesn't see it as "man's work."
Maybe things are changing, though. In the hospital today, I saw more male surgical assistants than female ones.
This is what I am talking about when I say men limit themselves.
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