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Perhaps. But I think you are thinking about things though the lens of Western History and not Anthropology. For example, if you look at mankind, as a whole, though thousands of years, not all cultures have said women should be "stay at home mom's without work." In the US, this is actually a notion that only came about in the 20th Century (in the 19th Century and before, women worked... usually along side their husbands and other family members on a family farm, family business, etc).
Anyway, I am getting off subject. Pretty much all cultures thought a long span of history have courting rituals centered around the man pursing the woman. All species of animal have courting and mating rituals and we are no different. And in ours, males evolved to courting/pursue females. Sure we are intellignet and thinking animals, but that doesn't make us immune from our biology. And as much as gender equality when it comes to dating is a popular idea modern idea, we are not going to undo such an ingrained mechanism in a short period of time. Sure it can change, but for most, it just won't feel right. We can rationalize it... but it's like rationalizing feelings.
It's the whole nature vs nurture argument. You think it's nurture that drives human courtship. I disagree and think when it comes to sex, courtship, etc "nature" still rules supreme.
Actually if we are going by anthropology then our current scene is all out of wack. Most relationships in the beginning were business transactions arranged relationships dominate human interaction compared to courting. Even in that context courting was still a business transaction to show if the man was worthy of the womans hand and making a stronger bond with the family.
Nature is a funny thing we could argue it goes against societies view of monogamy, many would say human beings are not naturally monogamous.
I think the nature vs nurture argument can be misguided trying to see who reigns supreme instead of seeing how the work with each other.
In a way, all that choice muddies the waters of the dating landscape more so than when there were stricter gender roles. Some women have absolutely no problem asking men out and paying for dates, and other women wouldn't dream of that. Similarly, some men don't want to shoulder all the dating initiatives, but others would be insulted by a woman taking the lead. Which is all fine and good, but it's harder to tell who's on the same page from the outset.
You know you are right it makes it hard to know if people are on the same page so I guess more communication will have to be in order. But personally even though it is hard I can attest to that I rather have this choice instead people feeling railroaded into certain behaviors because it is deemed as how its "suppose" to be.
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Originally Posted by JetJockey
Equality just gives the choice, it doesn't force people to believe a certain way. Just because a woman has the ability to ask a man out doesn't mean she'll want to or be obligated to do so. Can she ask a man out? Sure! Can she pay for the first date? Sure! But if she chooses not to or lets her partner do it it doesn't mean that she doesn't want equal pay at work...if that makes sense.
I'm a 'liberal feminist' and yet, I'm fairly submissive in my current relationship because that's what works for us and that's what we prefer. He likes taking the lead for most things and he is an excellent decision maker so I let him take the reigns. It doesn't mean I don't believe in liberation or equality...but I am happy that I have the opportunity to make that CHOICE when it comes to my personal life and that it wasn't made for me by society.
Get it?
It is all about choice and I personally love it in my case. The problem is though there are guys out there that fill short changed about the choice the feminism provides. Honestly people still look at some guys crossed eyed if their significant other makes more money, is the "decision maker" or wishes not the be the leader in the relationship. Lets be honest in the scale of "acceptable relationships" it goes men at head, egalitarian and woman being the head is automatically considered a ballbuster of some sort.
I mean as guy when you are told there is a choice in what you want in a relationship yet you are still expected to be the "leader" in a relationship it is a catch 22 of joker in the dark night levels.
I think the reason women don't ask guys out is this. Women want the upper hand in the relationship, they want to feel like they are more desired than him and therefore "better". By making the man take all the iniatives, the woman has more power.
The one who cares less always has more power than the one who cares more. And the one who is doing the pursuing is obviously the one who cares more.
In a way, all that choice muddies the waters of the dating landscape more so than when there were stricter gender roles. Some women have absolutely no problem asking men out and paying for dates, and other women wouldn't dream of that. Similarly, some men don't want to shoulder all the dating initiatives, but others would be insulted by a woman taking the lead. Which is all fine and good, but it's harder to tell who's on the same page from the outset.
Agreed, but it can also come in handy in really narrowing down a suitable partner. Sometimes it can take years to find out a persons true intentions and if you feel more comfortable just throwing it all on the table in the beginning it can make things easier in the long run.
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Originally Posted by highlife2
But what if me as the employer does not want to give her equal pay, that should be my choice too, women only want equality when it benifits them. They dont want to endure any of the hard ship if they can help it. That is why feminism has no credibility anymore. Thats where us not so hot guys use our edge, we are spending time building buisnesses/connections so when it comes to hot women that reject us why should we be nice to them in the work place and give them equal pay and opprotunity unless her qualifications are through the roof and she will make me alot of money?
Of course it's your choice to not equally compensate a woman for her work...those choices have consequences though. Just because women have rejected you in the past doesn't mean they don't deserve to be able to make a living... you seem to want to punish all women because you don't make a suitable partner.
I've endured PLENTY of hardships in my line of work and it's absolute BS that you think I shouldn't be compensated because I won't sleep with every guy that says hello to me. I mean, seriously? You're saying that in order to be successful and support ourselves we should be obligated to just spread our legs to whatever man wants us to or else we should be punished.
WTF are you talking about? As an employer, all of your employees with similar skill sets and job titles should be making similar salaries, regardless of whether or not you feel you've been wronged by hot women. Otherwise you'll be spending a lot of your time in court.
In the USA you would be, its our letegious society that has in part lead to buisness leaving the USA. Buisness owners get tired of dealing with piles and piles of liability. I should not have to care that you want equal pay, I should be able to do what ever I want as a buisness owner and the market should decide if I can get away with it not courts.
I thought all mammals don't have a common culture but then - darn! Lets look at the post again and think of it and comments in terms of applied culture versus the implied culture. In my opinion women don't just as a general rule propose to men or invite them out.
That said, I also tend to believe that most of type that can actually initiate an invite tend to be somewhat a kind of a deviant trait. By deviant I am not insinuating that that is negative trait but positive one though it is rarely encouraged to take the center stage.
A good number of the other may not know whether its good or not and may occasionally play a game or two of invites though most are what one would call "mind-teasers" - hey! I don't want to insinuate that men don't play the latter - they do. Where is that lucky number again?
Agreed, but it can also come in handy in really narrowing down a suitable partner. Sometimes it can take years to find out a persons true intentions and if you feel more comfortable just throwing it all on the table in the beginning it can make things easier in the long run.
Of course it's your choice to not equally compensate a woman for her work...those choices have consequences though. Just because women have rejected you in the past doesn't mean they don't deserve to be able to make a living... you seem to want to punish all women because you don't make a suitable partner.
I've endured PLENTY of hardships in my line of work and it's absolute BS that you think I shouldn't be compensated because I won't sleep with every guy that says hello to me. I mean, seriously? You're saying that in order to be successful and support ourselves we should be obligated to just spread our legs to whatever man wants us to or else we should be punished.
You have a really messed up worldview.
I am not saying you have to do anything, in the same way I dont think buisness owner should be choked by the courts. If you have the freedom to date who you want why should I not be able to hire and fire who I want. Why are you entitled to good money but a guy is not entitled to get laid. They are both equally absurd. This is part of what drives up the costs for everyone else when buisness owners are constantly under attack they will either pass the cost on to the consumer or close up shop if the market wont allow the cost to be passed on then everyone is out of a job.
If you are being paid less than someone else and dont think its fair you can change jobs, thats how the market works and if your skills are awesome enough you can get the wage you want. An employer does not owe you a living wage just like a woman does not owe anyone sex.
I am not saying you have to do anything, in the same way I dont think buisness owner should be choked by the courts. If you have the freedom to date who you want why should I not be able to hire and fire who I want. Why are you entitled to good money but a guy is not entitled to get laid. They are both equally absurd. This is part of what drives up the costs for everyone else when buisness owners are constantly under attack they will either pass the cost on to the consumer or close up shop if the market wont allow the cost to be passed on then everyone is out of a job.
If you are being paid less than someone else and dont think its fair you can change jobs, thats how the market works and if your skills are awesome enough you can get the wage you want.
You're comparing not getting laid to not being able to support yourself... seriously?
They are not on equal footing in any way, shape or form.
You're comparing not getting laid to not being able to support yourself... seriously?
They are not on equal footing in any way, shape or form.
It does not matter if they are on equal footing, no one owes anyone anything and its a big part of the problem in the USA, entitlement mentality, its why we are sinking as a nation and will continue to sink until we can reverse the last 50 years of laws that have piled massive liabilities on buisnesses.
I think the reason that women don't ask women out is because they don't have to. Getting a man is probably like shooting fish in a barrel. Women don't want to give up that rare position of power. Women can sit back and pick and choose. However, if I put my self in a woman's shoes - women have to dress pretty and compete with other women for men. I'm sure there are some aggressive women out there but I think it's rare.
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