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Originally Posted by sukrill
its not my opinion its a fact, not a theory. it can be proven. you see, ignorant people are unaware of this because they choose not to research or even look into a religion they know absolutely nothing about. of course im talking about people in general that lack this knowledge including yourself. you can find children reciting the quran in its original form as young as the age of 3. not only is it easy to memorize but in fact when a muslim makes their five daily prayers they recite a surah each time which is why some muslims can recite the entire quran on a weekly basis.
i can prove this. the only thing you have proven is that you really have no idea what your talking about. like i said before there is only one version to memorize. unless your memorizing it in your own language which most muslims if they memorize the quran memorize it in its original arabic form FIRST. and if you would once again read the thread from beginning to end you would see that what your bringing up again has already been discussed and we've moved on. if you would have read the thread you would know that we've already discussed the bible has multiple versions as well as translations into different languages. the quran only has one version that has been translated into different languages. however. the fact of the matter is it would be hard to re-write the bible because theres multiple versions of what was said. there is only one version of the quran so there would be no confusion in re-writing it because everyone would be repeating the same thing in its original arabic form. thats a fact. that can be proven.
and by the way, i never said NO ONE can re-write the bible. your trying to twist my words around. obviously there is someone im sure in the world who has memorized the KJV or even the ESV or the RSV or maybe even the NLT, but the fact that can be proven is that if you put these people who memorized these different versions of the bible, they would all have their own differences on what multiple verses say as i have already shown before. i show evidence. i prove what i say. i dont act like i know what im talking about when i really honestly and truly dont. i only talk about what i know. you have not only shown a lack of knowledge on this thread but disrupted a good, ongoing, dialogue that has been respectful on both sides.
its not a dream, its reality. it can be proven. as much as you may personally not like it or disagree that im right and your mistaken, doesnt make you right. i have proof. i can prove what i say. you have once again just made false accusations.
i want to see at least 100 people ramble off all 6000 verses of the quran by memory alone, making no mistakes word by word!! untill then.. it's your opinion,,, period!!!
i've been reading all the verses of the quran in english of course.. and it did not take me long to figure out that they are the words of man, not a god.. and like i said before i still want to see at least 100 people recite the quran in its entirety without making mistakes and without using a teleprompter totally by memory alone,!! then i would believe you.. until such a experiment has been conducted it's just your opinion.. but don't beat yourself up about it. it's just a book of words written by man to controll man.. last post i make on a subject that is nothing but a wast of time.
Ok. The jewish bible old testament LET'S JUST SAY is 100% authentic. I want to know about Jesus and the message he came with and what happened with him. But where can I find that? The Jewish bible does not have what he said or did ow what happened in his time. I want to read the new testament because I believe in Jesus... But what can I do? There's no authentic bible that has the new testament. And if the modern day bible is taken from earlier sources then why does it not match up with the "hebrew bible"... Where is the authentic "new testament of jesus christ"? pbuh. Your now referring me to read the hebrew bible which tells me half of the story but I want the other half of where I can find what Jesus REALLY said... The hebrew bible does not talk about him or what he did or what happened with him... Where's that info? The modern day bibles are all different and confusing, but ithat doesn't change the fact I want to know what Jesus said. And why did the christians change the OT in their bible so much?
Then you are speaking to the New Testament which is the other half of the Christian Scriptures. This speaks to Jesus and the early Christians.
The Hebrew Bible and the Christian Old Testament do not speak about Jesus because it was before his time.
You know Sukrill it really is not hard to find information about the NT without going to a forum and asking questions where you will get many different answers. It will also help you know what questions to ask so you don't waste your time asking the wrong questions.
Then you are speaking to the New Testament which is the other half of the Christian Scriptures. This speaks to Jesus and the early Christians.
The Hebrew Bible and the Christian Old Testament do not speak about Jesus because it was before his time.
You know Sukrill it really is not hard to find information about the NT without going to a forum and asking questions where you will get many different answers. It will also help you know what questions to ask so you don't waste your time asking the wrong questions.
Initially I was not here to ask any questions. I just came to answer the main question of the thread. That being "how could you change gods word?". I assume the person asking this was talking about the modern day bibles and not the "hebrew bible".
So I answered the question and different people had different claims. I proved that in fact man has changed the word of god written in the modern day bibles. KJV, ESV, NLT, etc.
I have answered the questions that have been asked and I have provided proof and evidence to back up my claims. I didn't relay this information with the intention to offend anyone of any religion or what someone may believe. I just wanted to show people what I discovered and just a few of the instances that lead me away from christianity and guided me to islam.
But everyone is allowed to have their opinion. Even cruxan who clearly just wants to argue. But I try not to waste my time with people who mock my religion or what I believe and simply refuse to do any research themselves. However I felt that some people on this thread are trying to have a legitimate dialogue. All arguments, debating, and differences aside, just asking legit questions and getting legit answers.
That's all I've been doing, if ANYONE took anything offensive I tried to apologize because I was trying to avoid that. However if I feel someone is mocking me or telling me I don't know what I'm talking about when I provide proof and evidence to what I'm claiming, I can't help but get upset once in a while. Its not my intention to get anyone upset or make anyone feel uncomfortable with what I am saying. I'm just trying to share my thoughts and experiences, etc. With others on the forum in a friendly way. Isn't that what the city data forum is for? Discussing religions and philosophies? That's all I am trying to do here. I am not your enemy or anyone else's enemy on the city data forum, I'm just here to discuss and share and exchange thoughts. That's all. And I'm sorry if you got offended by anything I've said. Like I said it wasn't my intention
The Hebrew Bible do(es) not speak about Jesus because it was before his time.
Actually, the Bible, or if you prefer the Jewish or Hebrew Bible, does speak about the Moshiach. But, Jesus of Nazareth fails to qualify as the Moshiach, and the definition was changed by the Church in their version of the Jewish Bible so that it would appear that Jesus of Nazareth would qualify.
Actually, the Bible, or if you prefer the Jewish or Hebrew Bible, does speak about the Moshiach. But, Jesus of Nazareth fails to qualify as the Moshiach, and the definition was changed by the Church in their version of the Jewish Bible so that it would appear that Jesus of Nazareth would qualify.
Never thought I'd live to see the day when all three Abrahamic religions went head to head on whose fairy tale was more authentic. (tongue in cheek)
Just a question, why did the 1st English translation of the qu'ran use King James English? Does thou's, arts, wherefore's, verilie's make the book sound more holy? As I remember, King James did not commission a translation of the Qu'ran to the then "layman's" English.
Looked it up and lo and behold -
The English translators have sometimes favored archaic English words and constructions over their more modern or conventional equivalents; for example, two widely read translators, A. Yusuf Ali and M. Marmaduke Pickthall, use the plural and singular "ye" and "thou" instead of the more common "you"
Interestingly enough, the first Qu'ran translation to English was from an already French translation and not Arabic and not by a Muslim. In fact the first three translations were by non muslims.
This can be said of the new Mormon scriptures that also used this outdated tongue.
Having studied most translations of the xian bible, IIRC about 28 in all, it is obvious that confirmation bias had influence to the translations into English. Having dissed the Judeo/Christian god as myth and seeing Islam is a derivative of the the same, I have no desire to educate myself on another myth.
Safe to say, the christian myth has more worldwide appeal than Islam outside of the ME.
Safe to say, the christian myth has more worldwide appeal than Islam outside of the ME.
Could that be because those that follow the Christian myth, your words, with the exception of Israel, are either murdered or encouraged, actually forced, to leave the ME by those who follow the Islamic myth, your words again?
Never thought I'd live to see the day when all three Abrahamic religions went head to head on whose fairy tale was more authentic. (tongue in cheek)
Just a question, why did the 1st English translation of the qu'ran use King James English? Does thou's, arts, wherefore's, verilie's make the book sound more holy? As I remember, King James did not commission a translation of the Qu'ran to the then "layman's" English.
Looked it up and lo and behold -
The English translators have sometimes favored archaic English words and constructions over their more modern or conventional equivalents; for example, two widely read translators, A. Yusuf Ali and M. Marmaduke Pickthall, use the plural and singular "ye" and "thou" instead of the more common "you"
Interestingly enough, the first Qu'ran translation to English was from an already French translation and not Arabic and not by a Muslim. In fact the first three translations were by non muslims.
This can be said of the new Mormon scriptures that also used this outdated tongue.
Having studied most translations of the xian bible, IIRC about 28 in all, it is obvious that confirmation bias had influence to the translations into English. Having dissed the Judeo/Christian god as myth and seeing Islam is a derivative of the the same, I have no desire to educate myself on another myth.
Safe to say, the christian myth has more worldwide appeal than Islam outside of the ME.
just because were on the "worldwide" veiw. christianity has been around longer and yes it does have more followers. but islam has not been around as long and is the fastest growing religion in the world and has almost as many followers as the christian faith. but numbers do not matter. at one point in time the majority of people believed the world was flat... doesnt mean all those people were right...
but it doesnt matter what form of english the quran was first translated to. who cares? we can always refer back to the original quran in its original form. doesnt matter if it even got translated incorrectly, we always have the original to fix it.
and cruxan earlier asked me to get 100 muslims together that have memorized the quran. i dont control the masses like this and i certainly wouldnt do it to prove a point to an ignorant person. but just for the record, every year during ramadan, at least at our mosque, the imam that leads the prayer recites the entire quran throughout the month. and he doesnt memorize a chapter or two every night, he already has it memorized. and yes there is over 6000 verses and he memorized them all along with thousands of others...
and all three religions may say something different, but they all believe in one god. the difference with christianity is that it has made that one god into a trinity. but all the major prophets of each religion had the same message. now its just determining which one is correct because if all three say something different then all three cannot be correct. but i wouldnt say we're going head to head at all. we're just having a dialogue on the differences. thats what the city data forum is for.
Could that be because those that follow the Christian myth, your words, with the exception of Israel, are either murdered or encouraged, actually forced, to leave the ME by those who follow the Islamic myth, your words again?
Possibly, but I was alluding to the fact outside of the ME, worldwide xians are in the majority - not that it matters to me one way or the other.
just because were on the "worldwide" veiw. christianity has been around longer and yes it does have more followers. but islam has not been around as long and is the fastest growing religion in the world and has almost as many followers as the christian faith. but numbers do not matter. at one point in time the majority of people believed the world was flat... doesnt mean all those people were right...
The growth is by muslim population growth, Islam will never become the predominant religion - OK I might rephrase that. Western nations are becoming more secular and xianity is losing traction. Its this coupled with the average higher numbers of muslim offspring vs the average decline in xian offspring that will allow islam to become the predominant religion. This predominance will be isolated to the ME and if Islam ever decided to convert the world by force, they would quickly become the smallest religion. Nukes have a way of leveling the playing fields rather quickly. That said, I have had many dealings with muslim businessmen and find them to be great guys and comparatively more honest than xian businessmen.
Once the oil in the ME dries up, the "west" will have no use for those nations.
Quote:
but it doesnt matter what form of english the quran was first translated to. who cares? we can always refer back to the original quran in its original form. doesnt matter if it even got translated incorrectly, we always have the original to fix it.
Which is exactly what the xians have been doing for centuries. The KJV still the hottest version in the USA has over 20k translation errors. Even attempts to fix this has not worked as the Latin Vulgate was the prime document used to translate to the KJV. Access to Greek manuscripts is subjective as the Greek language has evolved since then. Concordances are supposed to assist the reader as to the original text meaning but there are multiples of this now in existence. I would hazard a guess that Arabic has also evolved somewhat in the last 1600 years. Languages are not static. Even English is a relatively new language.
The point you missed is that the 1st English translation was carried out from an already French translation, any errors in the French version would be extrapolated into the English version. Just like Latin to archaic English was for the xian bible.
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and cruxan earlier asked me to get 100 muslims together that have memorized the quran. i dont control the masses like this and i certainly wouldnt do it to prove a point to an ignorant person. but just for the record, every year during ramadan, at least at our mosque, the imam that leads the prayer recites the entire quran throughout the month. and he doesnt memorize a chapter or two every night, he already has it memorized. and yes there is over 6000 verses and he memorized them all along with thousands of others...
Memorizing really has no bearing on anything other than a culture trait that this is encouraged. Memory retention is a skill that can be acquired/learned and does not in any way allude to better aptitude or intelligence. If you learn phrases and can recite them at will, we call that regurgitation if it is merely in a recital role. I knew a student that had the ability to memorize textbooks and in exams recited word for word. He had to unlearn this as he needed to answer in his own words. He never passed one exam.
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and all three religions may say something different, but they all believe in one god. the difference with christianity is that it has made that one god into a trinity. but all the major prophets of each religion had the same message. now its just determining which one is correct because if all three say something different then all three cannot be correct. but i wouldnt say we're going head to head at all. we're just having a dialogue on the differences. thats what the city data forum is for.
No they do not all have the same message, they are derivatives of the original Judaism each with their own little twists.
The fact that your religion can spurn both extremists and moderates does not differentiate you in any way from the others that have the same extremes. Islam is more archaic in that where it is the majority like in the ME, it also is the law of the land. Most cultures have evolved past this but IMO Islam is still in the dark ages. Some of your laws by modern standards are frightening to say the least and like xianity, fear of reprisal either by body mutilation, public beatings or public execution is what keeps folk's opinions to themselves. Xians did this too in the past.
Any religion that treats women that way yours does does not even deserve the time of day. Before you have any hope of convincing anyone yours is better, these simple human rights issues have to be addressed.
In the ME I would be killed for my worldview as an atheist and particularly if I told a muslim his imaginary friend allah is no more real than any preceding Norse, Greek, Roman, Jewish or pagan god(s).
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and like i said before i still want to see at least 100 people recite the quran in its entirety without making mistakes and without using a teleprompter
totally by memory alone,!! then i would believe you.. until such a experiment has been conducted it's just your opinion.. but don't beat yourself up about it. it's just a book of words written by man to controll man..
