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Agreed. I do not use the rape or incest arguments at all. They are unsatisfactory, and do not address the issue of the overall moral acceptability of abortion at all.
The logical conclusion, which many pro-lifers have drawn, is that if rape and incest are allowable exceptions for which we allow abortion, then abortion must be wrong in all other cases. If it is wrong in all other cases, then it is wrong in the case of rape or incest, and we are left balancing the lesser of two evils.
I believe that abortion should be permitted until the moment of birth. This is based upon the thought that we do need a solid dividing line between when it is permissible, and when it is not. Birth provides that line.
Obviously many people are going to object to this viewpoint, calling for banning of 3rd trimester abortions. I will even admit to some emotional qualms about such late term abortions myself. But it is a defensible line to draw, and that is the pro choice line that I hold.
I believe that abortion should be permitted until the moment of birth. This is based upon the thought that we do need a solid dividing line between when it is permissible, and when it is not. Birth provides that line.
Obviously many people are going to object to this viewpoint, calling for banning of 3rd trimester abortions. I will even admit to some emotional qualms about such late term abortions myself. But it is a defensible line to draw, and that is the pro choice line that I hold.
I do not think it is defensible, partly because you have not defended it. There are many possible lines, and you have just picked one. Simple as that. You have provided no basis for that choice. You may as well have put all the options in a hat and blindly drawn one out.
I think there are much better lines, lines that I can actually defend, which would not bring such emotional qualms. My own opinion on abortion cut off as a pro-choice campaigner is actually only slightly less than the cut off that is currently legal in much of the USA.
Let me try to present a lucid defense while typing on my phone.
My thoughts are based upon 3 principles.
1. The absolute right of a woman to be sovereign over her body.
2. The desire to draw a line with as little grey area as possible.
3. The harm to the fetus, as perceived by the fetus.
With those things in mind, 1 & 2 combine to make birth a logical line. The question is whether they are allowed by 3.
As for harm to the fetus, I will propose that a fetus is not self aware, with an understanding of present, past, or future. As the fetus lacks these things, it cannot fear death, or regret lost opportunity. I would say that these things are integral to our understanding of ourselves as human. So a fetus is not yet human in that sense, and does not fear the consequences. obviously pain would be an issue, so any abortion would need to be done only after taking steps to minimize or eliminate pain.
I will concede that my stance fails if sufficient men
tal capacity exists prior to birth. I am not aware that it does, but would change my viewpoint when presenred with sufficient evidence.
My own cut off recognises that there is a mental presence in the unborn after a certain point, and MRI scans of their mental activity match our own in too many ways to allow us to claim they do not feel pain, fear, or are not aware of their senses or their present.... all of which your premise appears to be based on.
The problem is we can not identify a point when such faculties are arise and operational, making it very hard to make a cut off from that direction.
My own approach instead is to take the exact same question, but from the opposite direction, and to identify points in development when we are 100% sure such things have not arisen in the development... which we very easily can do. I use this as a concrete line for my cut off, and it is one that so far I have found no defects with, nor do I harbour "emotional qualms". It leaves me with a cut off only slightly shorter than that which is already legal in the States.
I have to disagree with you. Nea still hasn't figured out a response for her conclusive attitude towards marriage between those with different religious beliefs. I think her view is a bit narrow and fails to take into consideration numerous ideas.
I already gave you an answer towards marriage between those of different or non religious. You just didn't like it. How do I know about it? My ex-husband was a Mormon and became more devout as time went on, do you want me to recount all the pain and resentment we went through? Some can put it on a the back shelf or stick your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exists or it isn't a big deal, but It will come up eventually..love doesn't always save you. It is probably easier for two people of similar beliefs, but non belief and a believer, tends to get a little complicated.
I think that when sonar scans reveal more than a mere "blob", say at 4-6 months, I seriously doubt that she will later then choose to have an abortion. Fetus' are viable after 7-8 months if they are prem but only with the assistance of medicine, incubators and the like. I have not looked up the stats on survivability of prems, just going on what my wife told me.
Anyone in the last trimester IMO will have a hard time making a decision to abort. Of course there are those that will hide their pregnancy well but even then, when finally found out, I am sure that she will go to term. I had a friend whose sister did this and she was 6-7 months before they found out. She had the kid and gave it up for adoption.
These are anyway the exceptions to the rule and as I have stated would probably happen at 6-10 weeks.
Here in SA, there are condom vending machines where condoms are available free of charge all over the place. At schools, they have to go to the nurse to get them and it is recorded. Our age of consent is 16. The combat against AIDS is the reason for the proliferation of free condoms but serves a dual purpose.
At the workplace you can get handfulls of condoms on request.
Our abortion rate has not really increased since it was made legal. We have 9 provinces and the state sets the law on these matters not individual provinces (akin to your states).
We actually found it hilarious when our govt wanted an extra billion condoms when we hosted the world cup last year. No ways anyone could run out with that number
I already gave you an answer towards marriage between those of different or non religious. You just didn't like it. How do I know about it? My ex-husband was a Mormon and became more devout as time went on, do you want me to recount all the pain and resentment we went through? Some can put it on a the back shelf or stick your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exists or it isn't a big deal, but It will come up eventually..love doesn't always save you. It is probably easier for two people of similar beliefs, but non belief and a believer, tends to get a little complicated.
You hadn't when I posted that. Look at the times.
The only problem I have with your responses is the idea that you seem to assume that you are the only person who's lived through those experiences and therefore your experience must be the ONLY experience and the ONLY way things will happen.
I think that when sonar scans reveal more than a mere "blob", say at 4-6 months, I seriously doubt that she will later then choose to have an abortion.
Your doubts are well founded. When I sat down to work through with myself what I think of abortion, I very deliberately did not look at WHEN most women have theirs. I did not want to be influenced by personal opinion before I had formed mine.
The cut off I came to was around 20 weeks at the latest but with safety margins etc I came to 12 weeks.
Very interesting statistics. It shows us that 61.3% of abortions happen before 9 weeks. Around 88% happen before 12 weeks. That means only 12% of them happen after the 12 week cut off idea I had independently come to for my own reasons (reasons not described here, available on request).
Of that 12% who had it later, 58% of women say they wish they had had it earlier. That brings the figure to 88% + (58% of 12%) = 94,96%.
This is all despite the fact that in many places in the US its legal to 20, 24 and I think I once heard 28 weeks.
So seems you are right, there is a point where most women would not even consider an abortion even if they wish they could.
So while I not only disagree with fishbrains using birth as a cut off point for abortion... I find that such a recommendation is not even required. Most people wouldn't want it and a pro-choice cut off point of 12 weeks would make:
1) Anti choice people happy cause its half the current legal time.
2) Make pro choice people happy cause the choice is there for women.
3) Tailor to the requirements of 95% of women.
Sounds like nearly everyone wins with a 12 week cut off.
The only problem I have with your responses is the idea that you seem to assume that you are the only person who's lived through those experiences and therefore your experience must be the ONLY experience and the ONLY way things will happen.
Like I said... narrow.
That would be you assuming not me. I never said i was the only one, clearly I am not that is why I said ME and my kids it would work. But as you talk with how great your marriage is despite the difference, clearly you don't know what it is like to be married to someone and have it turn sour due to the different beliefs.
We are not talking about mommy and daddy and brothers and sister and being shunned by them, we are talking marriage. No I will never advocate for it, I know how it can go, doesn't mean I would not support them if that is their decision.
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