Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I know exactly what you said thank you. Which is why I told people to beware. It very much is up for debate when a “human being” begins because the meaning of “human being” itself is a variable one depending on what the context of the conversation is. It is in fact of paramount importance to know what you mean by “human” in any given context.
For example “human” can just mean containing Human DNA. In which case a corpse is “human”. A sperm is “human”. I am “human”. A Zygote is “human”. The mass of green goo I pull out when picking my nose is “human”. A cancer is “human”. Yet we do not assign “human rights” to many of those things do we?`
Even the word “life” is not so clear and is “up for debate”. Sperm are alive. They have a different life cycle to us, but they are still alive.
So it is simply too easy to assign concepts such as a “right to life” to things that are alive, or things that have human DNA. It is not workable. So simply declaring… based on literally nothing… that a zygote after conception is a “human being” is a cop out and tells us nothing at all, especially in a discussion of “human rights” or a “right to life” or the morality of terminating same.
But these important conversations are EXACTLY what I said people like yourself are glossing over and coping out of by declaring by fiat they are not “up for debate” when they very much are and this is the warning I wanted to give people when I told them to beware comments like yours as when someone declares a whole part of the conversation as not being “up for debate” they are usually just someone trying to avoid a debate they themselves can not handle.
In fact I do not find a zygote to be a “human being” any more than I find a Blue Print to actually BE a house. The zygote fits no definitions of “human being” I hold, nor know of. The zygote is simply a completely undifferentiated clump of cells containing the DNA which is the blue print for BUILDING a human being.
As I say, if you want to call a zygote a human being therefore, you better also start calling blue prints actual houses as one is no more ridiculous and baseless than the other.
My proclamation "not up for debate" was not put forth based on "my opinion"...it is what's based on current KNOWN science.
You can argue with that if you want...like those that argue against evolution...but that's what's current relative to the issue at hand. "Life" begins at conception, and it IS "human" life. There may be a few "renegades" that claim otherwise, but the matter is pretty much settled in the overall scientific community. That it isn't settled in YOUR OPINION, or anything you "hold nor know of" is on you...not the scientific FACTS.
Your "Zygote--Human Being" TO "Blueprint--House" analogy is one of the worst I've ever seen on this forum.
By your analogy...a woman could be holding nothing more than a drawing of a baby...and you are claiming if someone destroyed the drawing, I would purport that they had killed someone.
That's NOT AT ALL an accurate representation of my argument.
The fertilized egg isn't a DRAWING of a person...it IS the person at it's very beginning stage of development.
I'm not calling adrawing of a person, a person...I'm calling the person, a person.
Typically, the zygote in a women would be properly analogized to the completed foundation, the completed framework, all the rest of the materials, the full set of plans & all the permits...along with the full crew and all the equipment to work until it is fully built.
You could say that would fit no definition of “house” you hold, nor know of...but, I submit, that would be ridiculous and baseless...and we should be careful to be "beware of people that make such disingenuous analogies".
What is there would be considered to have "begun"...and would be defined as "house"...except to you and others that would like to put a Stop Work Order on the crew, and demolish all that is there and what has been built up to that point...then try to say you didn't destroy a house...on the basis it wasn't fully complete with a Certificate of Occupancy.
My proclamation "not up for debate" was not put forth based on "my opinion"...it is what's based on current KNOWN science.
You can argue with that if you want...like those that argue against evolution...but that's what's current relative to the issue at hand. "Life" begins at conception, and it IS "human" life. There may be a few "renegades" that claim otherwise, but the matter is pretty much settled in the overall scientific community. That it isn't settled in YOUR OPINION, or anything you "hold nor know of" is on you...not the scientific FACTS.
Sources please? You state this as if it is an established fact such as evolution, gravity, or continental drift.
What you are in fact doing is sliding assumptions into your statement that do not belong.
The actual fact is that there is a HUGE difference between a zygote and a human being. Zygotes are in fact closer to sperm and/or eggs than they are to you and me. There is no differentiation between bone and muscle, no developed internal organs.
We can move onto the embryo, which is several weeks later. At this point it would take an expert to differentiate a human embryo from that of other mammals. If you doubt me, do a bit of googling for human embryo images, then compare them to cow, or dog, or whatever. In any case, the embryos of different species resemble one another far more than an embryo resembles you or me.
We can continue on throughout the development process. As we go through time, yes, eventually the zygote/blastocyst/embryo... develops into a fetus, and a human is born.
But to confuse life, with human life, with a human being is erroneous. These things are not equivalent, and I will go so far as to say that the scientific community is in agreement with that.
As evidence to back up my point, lets look at the fertility industry. IVF creates many, many excess fertilized eggs. Some of these die in test tubes. Others are frozen. Most are destroyed after IVF treatment is done. Nobody names these fertilized eggs. Nobody has funerals for them. There is no census for them. They are simply discarded, because they are not human beings.
You are simply picking an arbitrary point in time, that of conception, and pointing to it as the start of life. I can pick another arbitrary point in time, such as birth, and point to that. Other people will choose something in the middle. The real truth is that there is a huge grey area there, as fertilization>>birth is about development. Development from a blob of cells to a person.
But a blob of cells is not a person. It may be alive, but so is yeast.
Sources please? You state this as if it is an established fact such as evolution, gravity, or continental drift.
What you are in fact doing is sliding assumptions into your statement that do not belong.
The actual fact is that there is a HUGE difference between a zygote and a human being. Zygotes are in fact closer to sperm and/or eggs than they are to you and me. There is no differentiation between bone and muscle, no developed internal organs.
We can move onto the embryo, which is several weeks later. At this point it would take an expert to differentiate a human embryo from that of other mammals. If you doubt me, do a bit of googling for human embryo images, then compare them to cow, or dog, or whatever. In any case, the embryos of different species resemble one another far more than an embryo resembles you or me.
We can continue on throughout the development process. As we go through time, yes, eventually the zygote/blastocyst/embryo... develops into a fetus, and a human is born.
But to confuse life, with human life, with a human being is erroneous. These things are not equivalent, and I will go so far as to say that the scientific community is in agreement with that.
As evidence to back up my point, lets look at the fertility industry. IVF creates many, many excess fertilized eggs. Some of these die in test tubes. Others are frozen. Most are destroyed after IVF treatment is done. Nobody names these fertilized eggs. Nobody has funerals for them. There is no census for them. They are simply discarded, because they are not human beings.
You are simply picking an arbitrary point in time, that of conception, and pointing to it as the start of life. I can pick another arbitrary point in time, such as birth, and point to that. Other people will choose something in the middle. The real truth is that there is a huge grey area there, as fertilization>>birth is about development. Development from a blob of cells to a person.
But a blob of cells is not a person. It may be alive, but so is yeast.
Ummmmmmm, that's not the discussion here.
You, like Nozz, are "going off base".
The discussion in this thread (read the OP) is abortion...as in, "aborting what is in a FEMALE HUMAN that is ALREADY PREGNANT. Not eggs and sperm in test tubes. Or "living things" in general". Got it?
By some veeeeeery outside chance the OP might have meant something different...but I'd betcha I'm right on that.
Regardless of similarities of what they "look like" at early development stages...cow embryos in cows ALWAYS end up cows if they come to term---dog embryos in dogs ALWAYS end up dogs if they come to term---and human embryos in humans ALWAYS end up humans if they come to term. The zygote in that human female will ALWAYS end up to be NOTHING BUT a human. WHY? Because they are what they are TO BEGIN WITH, right from conception, and will NEVER be anything but...in each and every species. This is not an "assumption"...this is a fact.
As far as the overall scientific community having determined what I just stated...and, I will go as far as to say, as certainly as evolution, gravity, or continental drift...your suggested "bit of googling" will show that to you to be accurate. Try it, you'll see.
You tell me what god really thinks about abortion and killing babies.
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Christians cannot use their bible to assist them in any fight for anti abortion laws when their own bible supports and advocates murdering children AFTER they're born.
Ummmmmmm, that's not the discussion here.
You, like Nozz, are "going off base".
The discussion in this thread (read the OP) is abortion...as in, "aborting what is in a FEMALE HUMAN that is ALREADY PREGNANT. Not eggs and sperm in test tubes. Or "living things" in general". Got it?
By some veeeeeery outside chance the OP might have meant something different...but I'd betcha I'm right on that.
I was responding to your statements about when life started, and your assertion of so called facts. As such, it seems that we are both off base.
Additionally, it was you in post 51 that stated:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
"Life" begins at conception,
You were not talking about pregnancy, or if you were, your words were chosen poorly. IVF eggs have been conceived, and I was simply responding to your words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
Regardless of similarities of what they "look like" at early development stages...cow embryos in cows ALWAYS end up cows if they come to term---dog embryos in dogs ALWAYS end up dogs if they come to term---and human embryos in humans ALWAYS end up humans if they come to term. The zygote in that human female will ALWAYS end up to be NOTHING BUT a human. WHY? Because they are what they are TO BEGIN WITH, right from conception, and will NEVER be anything but...in each and every species. This is not an "assumption"...this is a fact.
Yes, the embryos will wind up being whatever species. Agreed. But that is not my point. My point is that embryos are not really very human at all. I used appearance as a basic reference point, but I could have used size, mental capability, emotional capability, mobility, etc, etc. My point is that an embryo is not really very human at all.
They become more and more human as the embryo/fetus develops, which is why abortions should be performed as early as possible. I have no problem with it in the first trimester, but it gets less defensible after that. After the fetus is capable of living outside the mother, it's too late.
Well, one thing is for sure, when a fetus becomes a person will always be a matter of opinion.
THAT ONE FACT ALONE is why abortion should always remain a PERSONAL CHOICE.......a choice made according to the beliefs of the woman involved and no one else.
BTW, as I have said before, IF a fetus is considered a person, then the father should be required to pay child support for that person. That means paying 1/2 of the living expenses of the woman while she is pregnant, including medical expenses. The mother needs food, shelter and medical care to support the man's fetus-person.....and he should pay 1/2 of those expenses. THIS is the next logical step IF we are going to legally classify a fetus as a person.
I think abortion is fine UNLESS the fetus is so advanced that it could survive on its own.
In other words, aborting a 4-month old fetus is OK.
Aborting a healthy 8-month old fetus is first degree murder. Book 'em, Dano.
My thoughts is this is NEVER OK... I believe it's a baby from day one! Do you know the babies sex is known at 4 months? I can not believe people are actually OK with this.
My religion has nothing to do with my thoughts... It's never an easy decision? Is that how people really think? That the baby is just a decision after THEY made the choice to have sex? WOW!!! That makes me so sick. The real problem is there is NO education in young people, no REAL responsiblity from teens or young adults! Teens and young adults just want to "party" and have fun. No parents are around to be PARENTS and to teach them the proper birth control method. Your CHOICE is NOT an abortion. Your CHOICE is to NOT have sex unless you are ready for the beautiful consequence.
You tell me what god really thinks about abortion and killing babies.
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Christians cannot use their bible to assist them in any fight for anti abortion laws when their own bible supports and advocates murdering children AFTER they're born.
One can choose to believe/assume that's "what God really thinks"...if they go by the literal reading of the ancient books written by ignorant, primitive men...and then adulterated, twisted, and polluted by evil, greedy men on a quest for control, power, and money.--But I don't.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
