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I apologized to you for "putting you in a box" in the other thread, so check that out briefly, please.
I mention in there, as well, that you appear to privilege the truth claims of Jesus - as reported in the Greek New Testament - over the truth claims of the Hebrew Bible. While this may not be a supersessionist argument specifically, it certainly is close to the view of the early Christian Marcion. Marcion, as you're probably aware, rejected the entire Hebrew Bible since he did not much care for the violent god of the Israelites. Even when it came to the Greek New Testament, he rejected some writings that were too "Jewish" - ending up with a very limited canon of Scripture.
Whether you self-identify with Marcion's views or not, you certainly reflect them for the most part.
Where I feel you have erred is in your understanding of "the lying pen of the scribes" and the context in which that was written in Jeremiah 8:8. It has to do with the contrast between the "law ["torah"] of Yahweh" and the "word of Yahweh" (see my post in another thread: https://www.city-data.com/forum/36388149-post18.html)
First off, the Hebrew in the passage is very difficult, ambiguous and built upon a repetition and a play on words, so it is highly uncertain what the actual intended meaning of the line could have been. The two usages of Å¡eqer can hold the meanings of "false, deceitful, delusion".
How can you say, "Why, we are the wise,
For we have the law ["torah"] of Yahweh"?
Now do but see - the deception ["Å¡eqer"] it's wrought -
The deceiving ["Å¡eqer"] pen of the scribes!
Shamed are the wise,
Stunned and trapped;
Why, look! They have spurned the word of Yahweh,
So what manner of wisdom do they have?
(Jeremiah 8:8-9, AB Bright)
Secondly, there are several possibilities as to how to interpret what Jeremiah meant. An important note is that at this time, the first five books of the Hebrew Bible - the Torah, or Pentateuch - were not known collectively as "the Torah" yet. Additionally, there are multiple law-codes present by different authors and schools, so Jeremiah could have been referring to just one of those - possibly Deuteronomy, or a form of Deuteronomy.
A) The Word of Yahweh vs the Torah of Yahweh: which is more authoritative?
The plain-sense reading is related to the difference between the "Torah of Yahweh" and the "Word of Yahweh". It appears that the "scribes" - not necessarily the authors of the "Torah", but those who possessed the ability to disseminate religious knowledge via the scrolls they possessed - had assumed that they knew the entirety of what Yahweh intended for them to know - the Will of Yahweh, and that it was contained within the written "Torah" alone. They ignored the importance of the "Word of Yahweh" - those prophetic oracles I discussed in my link above which were supposed to have been direct communications from Yahweh to the people, via a prophetic medium. Jeremiah, a prophet, would have naturally placed more importance on the "word of Yahweh" via prophet, rather than on a set of writings that had somehow gotten authoritative status - the "Torah of Yahweh".
B) Deuteronomy as a Å¡eqer "Torah of Yahweh".
Another interpretation has been around for ages, and suggests that Jeremiah is not accusing the entire Torah of being false, but of only one of the law codes found in the Torah, or Pentateuch. It's widely known that there were multiple authors of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, and that there are multiple law codes -or "Torahs" - by different authors and schools written at different times. The interpretation of this passage is that Jeremiah was rejecting one of those Torahs, not all of them - perhaps a new one. This could take up an entire thread alone, and probably has on this forum somewhere.
The truth may be a little of both A and B above, but the plain-sense reading that makes the most probably sense, in my mind, is option A - that Yahweh was chastising those who thought themselves wise via possession of God's will found in the written Torah alone, while completely ignoring the direct communication of Yahweh via his prophets: the true "Word of Yahweh".
Regardless, it's highly unlikely that Jesus as Logos, or Word, in the Hymn of the Gospel of John had anything to do with what Jeremiah was writing. Well, technically, what Jeremiah's scribe Baruch had written.
Perhaps I missed it, but where are the comments of Jesus concerning this passage, and now that you've seen it in context do you still feel they are applicable?
Yes I still see it as applicable, and the B) interpretation seems to back that up, and what I pointed out in that like was where Jesus was showing the laws which were false.
A big fat question. On the face of it, it looks like it was given...hang on. let me check... Exodus 21. (ordinances) were dictated by Moses. Did he get these from God? 24.4 says that these are the words of the Lord, not of Moses. The golden calf and 10 commandments come after this, but then 35 gives a whole lot more Lord's commandments.
Leviticus is also the Lords dictating this stuff to Moses. Including at 11 what is clean and what is unclean. Deuteronomy has more of the same and with Numbers also the organisation of Israel.
This is all from God. Every bit as much as the commandments. And they were to be kept. How could it be that suddenly the messiah appears and says 'none of that stuff matters, now. in fact your are being blind, stiff - necked and hard - hearted in doing that stuff. That's why I am denouncing you and calling you blind.'
'Even though if so, (Jesus says) God has done that to you so you wouldn't agree to give up all those Mosaic rites, indeed he only gave them to you because of your hardness of heart, even though God dictated it all to Moses in the desert - it was all set out because your hearts were too hard - as God did deliberately - to accept the general good -doing love your neighbour stuff that I am telling you now. And the reason he did that (says Jesus) is that he always intended that you Jews would go to hell through failure to accept me and my message. So much so that he hardenend you hearts right from the beginning, so that your never, ever, be able to listen to me...apart from a few disciples that did, of course.'
'But it is fact the gentiles (Jeus goes on) whom God intended to save in the end, not you lot. Yes, the only reason I came to you was to put the seal on your damnation and just to let you know that the gentiles are better than you - their hearts have not been hardened by God, so they will listen and be saved.
That, pneuma, is the message of Paul and the Gospels and it stinks. I thank random factors that i don't believe a word of it, and believe that all that was a theology based on Paul's self serving abrogation of the Jewish law (which as a Jew he SAYS he SHOULD keep , but clearly doesn't) though faith in Jesus and adapted into a Jew - damning doctrine by Greek Christians, who hated all Jews and the teachers of the Law in particular.
I hope that the post above explains our problem with both the OT and the new. The OT purports to give a Jewish history which reason, internal textual criticism and archaeology suggests is false, based in part of existing myths, laws and and customs of the time.
The problem I have with the NT is that these beliefs, whether or not I believe them, are the Jews' beliefs and then Pauline Christians come up with this vile twaddle about 'fulfilling the law' which is goobledegook for binning it, and damning then as a brood of vipers, son of satan and blind and murderers of prophets for keeping the law that God gave them.
Does this explain my position?
Actually Arequipa what you explained above has nothing to do with Christianity as far as I am concerned. Although some people might agree with a part here or a part there in what you summarized the gospel message is actually totally different then what you put forth.
The gospel we are commanded to teach and testify to is that Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe. Paul's gospel actually states ALL Israel shall be saved.
The reason you disagree so much with Jesus and Paul is because the churches have erred so greatly in their understanding of the gospel and either teach people will be eternally torment or annihilated. So your not really disagreeing with Jesus and Paul your disagreeing with the way the churches have understood what they were actually saying.
I understand you Arequipa, however like I said what the churches teach today is NOT the gospel we are commanded to teach. So your refusal to believe the NT is actually based on misinformation provided by the churches and not the actual gospel we are commanded to teach.
Jesus performed all his miracles on behalf of YHWH, the immoral God of jealousy, murder, and terrorism. YHWH was a spirit in Heaven that told Abraham to murder his own innocent child, and Abraham is lauded having been so willing to follow through with it. YHWH also told Moses to murder countless innocent people, and Moses did as the voice told him. This is the same God in Heaven that instructed Jesus in what to do and say. The Bible is, among other things, an exercise in making murder acceptable, and an admirable act.
Jesus performed all his miracles on behalf of YHWH, the immoral God of jealousy, murder, and terrorism. YHWH was a spirit in Heaven that told Abraham to murder his own innocent child, and Abraham is lauded having been so willing to follow through with it. YHWH also told Moses to murder countless innocent people, and Moses did as the voice told him. This is the same God in Heaven that instructed Jesus in what to do and say. The Bible is, among other things, an exercise in making murder acceptable, and an admirable act.
You would have to prove the authority of the morality you are proposing as 'right' is in any way objective and not simply a subjective social indoctrination. Seeing how I've yet to meet anyone who can do that, you have no basis to call God 'immoral'. Subjectively, sure. Objectively? No.
God is the source of objective morality. Anything else is opinion.
You would have to prove the authority of the morality you are proposing as 'right' is in any way objective and not simply a subjective social indoctrination. Seeing how I've yet to meet anyone who can do that, you have no basis to call God 'immoral'. Subjectively, sure. Objectively? No.
God is the source of objective morality. Anything else is opinion.
YHWH and his doctrine of terrorism, that condemned many innocent people to death, also condemned Jesus to die. Jesus performed his miracles on YHWH's Moses's and Abraham's behalf.
YHWH and his doctrine of terrorism, that condemned many innocent people to death, also condemned Jesus to die. Jesus performed his miracles on YHWH's Moses's and Abraham's behalf.
Yes, I got that the first time. You would still have to prove the validity of such a claim. I have found no evidence to support it, honestly.
Jesus performed all his miracles on behalf of YHWH, the immoral God of jealousy, murder, and terrorism. YHWH was a spirit in Heaven that told Abraham to murder his own innocent child, and Abraham is lauded having been so willing to follow through with it. YHWH also told Moses to murder countless innocent people, and Moses did as the voice told him. This is the same God in Heaven that instructed Jesus in what to do and say. The Bible is, among other things, an exercise in making murder acceptable, and an admirable act.
You have your Bible characters and stories mixed up. Makes me suspect the validity of your interpretation.
Yes, I got that the first time. You would still have to prove the validity of such a claim. I have found no evidence to support it, honestly.
You would find all the evidence in the Bible, where the laws of the Prophets make it a capitol crime to pick up sticks, or heal, on the Sabbath. The Laws of the Prophets also makes it illegal to preach of God in ANY way that differs from Moses's. Jesus was just a guilty as Zelophehad was when he peacefully picked up sticks on Moses's Sabbath. Jesus was also just a guilty as the 3000 innocent Jews that were tortured and murdered for innocently, peacefully building the Golden calf shrine. The laws of the Prophets also calls for the death of all gays, witches, non believers, followers of other religions...etc....The Bible teaches the doctrine of terrorism. The early priests offered the services of stoning to death anyone who wishes to hand over their child that was behaving badly. The Bible is all about murder, as YHWH had a lust for innocent's blood to be spilt, and burned.
You have your Bible characters and stories mixed up. Makes me suspect the validity of your interpretation.
YHWH told Moses to kill a man for picking up sticks on his Sabbath. YHWH told Moses to kill the 3000 builders of the Golden Calf shrine. YHWH had Moses attack people of other faiths.....etc....Jesus was just as guilty as those people that were ruthlessly murdered in acts of terrorism. Jesus was one in a long list of innocent victims of the doctrine of YHWH.
Any Shaman will tell you that there are multiple spirits in Heaven, and some of them are evil. Abraham is lauded as a hero prophet for being so willing to gut open his own innocent child because a spirit in Heaven told him to. If I were to gut my own innocent child because a voice in Heaven told me to, that would be me acting out IRRISPONSIBLY. The Bible makes the murder of innocent people a good and noble thing to do. The God of the Bible is CLEARLY the immoral God of jealousy, murder, and terrorism.
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