Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Good, thanks. I hope others give their 2 cents.
Esp about the 6000yrs old thing..hahaha....would their be a fight if one Fundie said they didn't believe that? Hmm..
Yes, there would. Mike555 is (by my criteria) a fundamentalist. He accepts evolution and an old earth and he's posted that. Yes, other fundamentalists fight it. The fundamentalist denomination I was raised in teaches a young earth, and yes, they fight for it.
Yes, there would. Mike555 is (by my criteria) a fundamentalist. He accepts evolution and an old earth and he's posted that. Yes, other fundamentalists fight it. The fundamentalist denomination I was raised in teaches a young earth, and yes, they fight for it.
Yes, I was going to point out Mike555 also. He's made a number of well-thought-out posts about his points of view in that regard even though he does take most of the Bible to literally be the Word of God.
Good gawd, does the list of atheists accused of being Christians/told they're "talking like theists"/etc. because they dare disagree with another atheist never end? Nice to meet you, Pleroo! Welcome to the club. I'm Vic, another alleged Christian spy
What the atheists who accuse you of not being an atheist or of using "theist think" are objecting to is your "debunking" of their arguments against God. It is their arguments that are insufficient to support their atheism and you are just objectively pointing that out. They are still free to be atheists and not believe in God, but they cannot continue to pretend their arguments justify it because they don't. That is the main problem with their demand that No God be the default until shown proof of God other than what exists. They do not recognize that default implicitly asserts their claim and their arguments are NOT proof of it.
Not at all. But I’m an ex-Christian talking to an ex-Christian (you). You are talking to me like I’m still a Christian trying to defend Christianity when all I’m doing is pointing out what I’ve observed in your posts. Whatever conclusions you come to about God, the universe and everything is obviously fine. I don’t get upset with you about thinking God is absent even though I don’t. But since you can’t or won’t discuss beyond the fundamentalist (who are also black/white all or nothing) concept of God even with those who don’t hold that view, it makes me think you’re still stuck in a fundamentalist mindset. And I would like to see you reach your conclusions from a better, more rational place than fundamentalism.
Yes, and you know that I (and Mystic and MQ) agree that that’s a problem with some who are Christians. And you know I’ll stand with you anytime you bring that to the attention of a Christian who is proclaiming it. I don’t need to be convinced that the fundamentalist god does not exist. You keep asking those of us who don’t disagree with you about that to dispute you and convince you to believe again. Why would we do that?
This is a good post, Pleroo. I will address what you ask in detail, then MightyQueen's excellent post and last Mystic's because he too is trying sincerely to talk sensibly to me--unlike Vic, who splits a person's post into micro-pieces and then gives these garbled cryptic little soundbytes as replies that make absolutely no sense.
Quote:
I don’t get upset with you about thinking God is absent even though I don’t.
I only report what I see and so far I have seen nothing that tells me God is operating in this world. Of course the Christians have all this gobbledygook about Jesus raising people from the dead in Africa and other sundry madness but he sure is MIA over here in America where Christians are leaving Christianity by the millions and churches are shutting down faster than the ex-Christians can make it to the exit signs. I presume the remaining ones are praying hard about this but those prayers sure aren't changing the statistics which show that Christianity is shrinking by 1% per year in this country.
Quote:
The most recent surveys reveal the number of self-proclaimed Christians to be shrinking dramatically at about 1% a year. At present, about 70% of Americans identify themselves as Christians.
Now the Christians claim their god answers prayers. Christians are assuredly praying for people to come back to Jesus. But people aren't coming back to Jesus. Does anyone sense a disconnect there--God answers prayers, Christians are praying, God isn't answering their prayers.
Now you and I, Pleroo, I'm sure couldn't care less if Christianity disappeared tomorrow. But why don't the Christians recognize that their god is completely ignoring their prayers when the Bible says he will answer all prayers that are prayed for his glory?????????? I simply do not get it!
So I'm curious, Pleroo. What do you see Go doing in this world that shows He's actively participating in it? I don't see a thing.
Quote:
But, you’re preaching to the choir.
Actually, no. I'm preaching to the lurkers around here who are thinking of joining Christianity and are investigating it. I'm screaming at them, "DON'T JOIN CHRISTIANITY!!!!! I'll be the biggest mistake you ever make! I know, from experience as a former fundamentalist!" And I try to show with excellent exegesis, historical reference and plain ol' common sense why that is true.
Quote:
You keep asking those of us who don’t disagree with you
Heaven's no! I'm not asking you and Rafius and Harry et.al who stand with you and I. I know your positions. I'm asking BaptistFundie and jimmie and Mystic. And Vic and arach who I believe are closet fundamentalists even though they deny it. But BF and jimmie have put me on ignore for some funny reason (you know you're getting through to a Christian with your common sense when they shut you off completely ) I'm actually appealing to the lurkers to observe the sensible things I say and the unintelligible replies I get back from those who choose to respond, Mystic being the sole exception who has some really intelligent stuff to contribute, even though he not fundamentalist but more New Age, which is great. Now if only I could get him to recognize that Jesus, the Savior of mankind is not real, he's just an invention of the church.
...snip... But BF and jimmie have put me on ignore for some funny reason (you know you're getting through to a Christian with your common sense when they shut you off completely )...snip...
Welcome to the club. Being put on ignore by the likes of jimmiej and BF should be worn like a badge of honour. It means you made a dent in their Fundashields Of Determined Ignorance - no easy feat.
Welcome to the club. Being put on ignore by the likes of jimmiej and BF should be worn like a badge of honour. It means you made a dent in their Fundashields Of Determined Ignorance - no easy feat.
"Badge of honor". You know I though of that term before I even got to that part of your post. We have arrived, Trout! We are officially on jimmie's and Baptist's ignore list!
I'm on the ignore list, too, Thrill, so don't go feeling too special.
Thanks for your reply. I only saw one question for me, so I'll respond to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
I'm curious, Pleroo. What do you see God doing in this world that shows He's actively participating in it? I don't see a thing.
You've probably seen at least one post of mine where I've declared my belief that God IS love . I see love, energetically, as creative and life-giving, and I believe it is foundational to our reality. Perhaps God could be conceptualized as a force, but I do think that force is conscious and aware, though I'm still working that one out in my head.
I like the analogy of each of us being a wave of the ocean that is God, so in no way separate, though it feels that way. So, as I see it, God is within each of us, Thrill, our very life force, driving our spiritual (and physical) evolution individually and collectively. My belief/hope is that God's activity/energy can be tuned into, more consciously than most of us do, on an individual basis, participated in, experienced and expressed in ways that are unique to each of us. I don't think I've tuned in very well yet. If/when I do, I'll let you know what I learn. But my assumption is that the more we tune in, individually and collectively, the more we will see God in action, because God is acting through us. I think it's very apparent that there are people who are more tuned in, and I want to be like them when I grow up.
Yes, I was going to point out Mike555 also. He's made a number of well-thought-out posts about his points of view in that regard even though he does take most of the Bible to literally be the Word of God.
I was going to point out in that thread of Mike's that the video he posted, not surprisingly, doesn't deal with early hominids dating back 400,000 years to Neanderthals which died out about 40,000 years ago just as Cro-Magnons were coming in to establish the Homo sapien (modern) lineage. The film deceptively, I feel, tries to bypass the idea we evolved from lower forms and instead tries to limit evolution to the lower animal kingdom and then separates this evolution from Adam and Eve, where the film, if it had allowed itself to go there, would have said, "Then after God allowed evolution to finish its job on the plant and lower animal kingdoms God made man out of the dust of the earth 6000 years ago, as Genesis correctly states".
So Mike is a tiny bit less fundamental than he used to be but I feel he's still not ready to say that man evolved from lower forms, but was still created by God as a fully evolved modern man as Genesis describes. Am I right, Mike? Let's wait and see.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 03-03-2019 at 03:25 PM..
I was going to point out in that thread of Mike's that the video he posted, not surprisingly, doesn't deal with early hominids dating back 400,000 years to Neanderthals which died out about 40,000 years ago just as Cro-Magnons were coming in to establish the Homo sapien (modern) lineage. The film deceptively, I feel, tries to bypass the idea we evolved from lower forms and instead tries to limit evolution to the lower animal kingdom and then separates this evolution from Adam and Eve, where the film, if it had allowed itself to go there, would have said, "Then after God allowed evolution to finish its job on the plant and lower animal kingdoms God made man out of the dust of the earth 6000 years ago, as Genesis correctly states".
So Mike is a tiny bit less fundamental than he used to be but I feel he's still not ready to say that man evolved from lower forms, but was still created by God as a fully evolved modern man as Genesis describes. Am I right, Mike? Let's wait and see.
Thanks for some v. good posts (I haven't got my BF and Jimmie 'ignore' medal of honour yet. I suppose as a goddam Limey i don''t qualify). I'll just comment on Mike 555 and his Modified evolution -skeptic stance.
It points up this idea that suggesting or noting where he stands is Not an accusation that supposedly pins him down. Nor if he posts to correct us in what we thought, does it somehow discredit us that we cannot read his mind. Too many seem to leap on our guesses and suppositions as a kind of witch -hint that means we are all atheist fundy-extremists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
What the atheists who accuse you of not being an atheist or of using "theist think" are objecting to is your "debunking" of their arguments against God. It is their arguments that are insufficient to support their atheism and you are just objectively pointing that out. They are still free to be atheists and not believe in God, but they cannot continue to pretend their arguments justify it because they don't. That is the main problem with their demand that No God be the default until shown proof of God other than what exists. They do not recognize that default implicitly asserts their claim and their arguments are NOT proof of it.
Good grief Mystic. You are unable to follow simple logical arguments like 'if evidentialism is dead, it is irrelevant to how we use evidence'? Or a claim without backup is without force? But then you seem also to reverse logic. reversal of burden of proof, sneering at the principle of parsimony as 'The Friar's dictum' -as if that invalidated it. Yes, you would probably think that Vic's theist -headed arguments are perfectly sound.
I'm still waiting, by the way, for any response to my points - that he has crashed and burned over 'evidentialism' and that he used double standards with 'squared circle' and 'God's Plan' both of which are improbable, but undisprovable (1). Something other than the usual denial.
(1) there is a logical 'get out' of course - let's see whether he spots it. If he does, I'm ready with the counter.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-03-2019 at 03:34 PM..
I'm on the ignore list, too, Thrill, so don't go feeling too special.
Thanks for your reply. I only saw one question for me, so I'll respond to it.
You've probably seen at least one post of mine where I've declared my belief that God IS love . I see love, energetically, as creative and life-giving, and I believe it is foundational to our reality. Perhaps God could be conceptualized as a force, but I do think that force is conscious and aware, though I'm still working that one out in my head. I like the analogy of each of us being a wave of the ocean that is God, so in no way separate, though it feels that way. So, as I see it, God is within each of us, Thrill, our very life force, driving our spiritual (and physical) evolution individually and collectively. My belief/hope is that God's activity/energy can be tuned into, more consciously than most of us do, on an individual basis, participated in, experienced and expressed in ways that are unique to each of us. I don't think I've tuned in very well yet. If/when I do, I'll let you know what I learn. But my assumption is that the more we tune in, individually and collectively, the more we will see God in action, because God is acting through us. I think it's very apparent that there are people who are more tuned in, and I want to be like them when I grow up.
Another excellent witness, Pleroo! (You ARE one of the grown-ups in the forum)I remember likening my experience to experiencing the wave at a sporting event but your analogy to waves in the ocean is even closer.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
) I'm actually appealing to the lurkers to observe the sensible things I say and the unintelligible replies I get back from those who choose to respond, Mystic being the sole exception who has some really intelligent stuff to contribute, even though he not fundamentalist but more New Age, which is great. 
Am I right, Mike? Let's wait and see. 
I suppose as a goddam Limey i don''t qualify). I'll just comment on Mike 555 and his Modified evolution -skeptic stance.
