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Ozzy, let's start with religionists crusade against abortion -- not abortions among themselves, but dictating the rights of others. Against homosexuality...again, dictating what should be a person's individual rights. In favor of religious statues on public property. About who can and can't buy and sell a friggin' cake.
all groups do it to some extent phet. lets look at the anti-religionist.
lets look at that cake ... who forced who's view on that cake? would you like to talk about a reasonable set of rules or do you want to go around hitting people with that cake? Like all people can shop in our store and buy what they want ... we will make most types of cakes ... we just don't make same sex wedding cakes.
should we compare this list here to anti-religious people forcing their morals on us and destorying our schools on the east coast in the process? you know, because they are on some warped crusade? they destroyed our schools so effectively we are "forced by them" to look at the religious schools. even when we don't believe?
Ozzy, let's start with religionists crusade against abortion -- not abortions among themselves, but dictating the rights of others. Against homosexuality...again, dictating what should be a person's individual rights. In favor of religious statues on public property. About who can and can't buy and sell a friggin' cake.
You've got to be kidding about the cake. And even I'm pretty liberal on social issues. Are you joking?
I hear you. Like you, I cut my teeth on the Bible, which "permeated my reality since infancy" (...well put!). By the time I was a teen, because I was good at memorizing things, I could quote Bible verses and recite back Luther's Catechism, word for word. At the same time, I started to sense "there was no there... there." But it took me another 40-50 years before I could overcome that early indoctrination enough to admit it, to myself and (slowly, painfully) to others. You'll never hear complaints from me, about the time and methods people take to come to grips with their upbringing.
Seems like we followed a similar timeline. . Lutheran indoctrination is no joke. It’s systematic and very effective. Germans don’t play.
Arq wonders why you didn't stop at atheist after you rejected the unsound and irrational beliefs you were taught in Christian dogma. He seems to equate human fallibility in understanding God with evidence of no God. Your refusal to go that far seems to puzzle and frustrate him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
I read his post the same way you did, Pleroo.
As a simple example, take well-worn sayings that appear in the Bible that long-ago entered the general lexicon to the point where many people don't even realize their biblical origins. A leopard can't change its spots. He's the Prodigal Son. We're going to have to cut the baby in half. There is nothing new under the sun. And so forth.
Many people find truth in those sayings even if they don't subscribe to or are aware of the source from whence they came.
Thanks guys. That was helpful. And MQ, that’s a great way of explaining what I’ve been trying to say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
It's less an issue the more you explain it. After all I'm not telling you how you think, I'm learning from you. It looked at first as though you were saying that the Bible tells us about some eternal verities that implies a divine source. Now it seems that you know these are natural and the Bible is just a handy metaphor for them. That's ok, but not especially helpful.
Like talking about instinctive morals vs educated morals and you say "Yes, Paul says these things are written on our hearts'. Yes, sure that's what he was talking about without knowing what he was realy dealing with. But it isn't particularly helpful.
I think “spiritual” principles that address how we can make the best of our human experience do have a divine source, in that our reality is founded in the divine. Which makes those principles a natural part of our reality. People everywhere and throughout time have latched onto those principles and sometimes write about them. Some attribute them to God, some don’t. It doesn’t matter, as I see it. Does what we’ve latched onto make good sense? Does it lift up the individual without destroying the whole? Does it have the potential to be beneficial on an individual and (therefore) collective basis? And yes, we have inherent human instincts and attributes that allow us to make that determination. You don’t think that originates from our Source, or you don’t believe that Source is divine. Ok. I do. I don’t see a problem with your perspective or mine. They are simply 2 ways of seeing the same thing.
all groups do it to some extent phet. lets look at the anti-religionist.
lets look at that cake ... who forced who's view on that cake? would you like to talk about a reasonable set of rules or do you want to go around hitting people with that cake? Like all people can shop in our store and buy what they want ... we will make most types of cakes ... we just don't make same sex wedding cakes.
should we compare this list here to anti-religious people forcing their morals on us and destorying our schools on the east coast in the process? you know, because they are on some warped crusade? they destroyed our schools so effectively we are "forced by them" to look at the religious schools. even when we don't believe?
I mean who exactly is the bad guy here?
I really tire of you arguing virtually every post from every angle, whether it is basically pro-atheism or pro-religionist. It's why I don't generally respond to your rambling posts. And I'm going to respond to this one post of yours, and then never again.
1. Yes, all groups and people tend to think others should have the same viewpoint they do. That's rather natural logic, even when it's not logical.
2. I'm not going to get into another whole discussion about the wedding cake. But here is the key issue in that mess. One side wanted to restrict a purchase by someone because of their beliefs. The other side just wanted no restrictions. One side wanted to treat one group of people differently than all others. The other side just wanted equal treatment. And it was the religious side the wanted the restrictions and to treat people unequally.
3. There are many fine schools on the East Coast. I know because I taught and administrated in several of them. But beyond that, I don't even know what your point is in that paragraph. The morals of most anti-religious people in the United States are not that different than the morals of most religious people. A local here (in the west) had billboards here in Colorado Springs that pointed out that a majority of christian men look at internet porn.
That's it. I'm done with you. Go ahead argue with yourself all you wish to.
I don't see how Christians are "dictating" their values on others. They play by the same rules everyone else does.
No. Just no.
To repeat myself from earlier: Here is the key issue in that mess. One side wanted to restrict a purchase by someone because of their beliefs. The other side just wanted no restrictions. One side wanted to treat one group of people differently than all others. The other side just wanted equal treatment. And it was the religious side the wanted the restrictions and to treat people unequally.
But the point isn't the cake or that one incident. The point is the way of life.
I used to live in a community in Northern Virginia where twice a year religionists would line up on each side of the main thoroughfare (on which I happened to live) for a couple of miles with protest signs against abortion. The protest would go on for hours each time, and the signs and interviews centered around how sinful people who were in favor of more liberal abortion laws were. A sort of shaming. And these protesters were often on private property...including mine. And again the idea was we get to dictate morality.
And naturally you don't see it as attempting to dictate morality to others...because as a religionist you agree with them.
To repeat myself from earlier: Here is the key issue in that mess. One side wanted to restrict a purchase by someone because of their beliefs. The other side just wanted no restrictions. One side wanted to treat one group of people differently than all others. The other side just wanted equal treatment. And it was the religious side the wanted the restrictions and to treat people unequally.
But the point isn't the cake or that one incident. The point is the way of life.
I used to live in a community in Northern Virginia where twice a year religionists would line up on each side of the main thoroughfare (on which I happened to live) for a couple of miles with protest signs against abortion. The protest would go on for hours each time, and the signs and interviews centered around how sinful people who were in favor of more liberal abortion laws were. A sort of shaming. And these protesters were often on private property...including mine. And again the idea was we get to dictate morality.
And naturally you don't see it as attempting to dictate morality to others...because as a religionist you agree with them.
No, you don't have a point. First, you are talking about politics. There are believers and nonbelievers on both sides. Second, the "other side" as you describe them do EXACTLY the same things you accuse only one side of doing.
You aren't making any valid points. It just sounds like the same kind of empty rhetoric I hear all the time.
No, you don't have a point. First, you are talking about politics. There are believers and nonbelievers on both sides. Second, the "other side" as you describe them do EXACTLY the same things you accuse only one side of doing.
You aren't making any valid points. It just sounds like the same kind of empty rhetoric I hear all the time.
How would you know? You are too busy moving the goal posts.
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. Lutheran indoctrination is no joke. It’s systematic and very effective. Germans don’t play. 
