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Correct. One must weigh what is said, regardless of whom supposedly said it, to determine if it has any value.
Exactly. If your family is engaging in activities that are not healthy, then engaging in activities that are healthy may tear one away from their family. And it is more valid than the claim "stand behind your family no matter how much suffering they inflict on others."
...and when it was, one hundred years later, the writers could remember verbatim, every single word that was spoken, where it was spoken, who spoke it and to whom. Pretty amazing huh?
Yes, it is. Even more amazing is that we ("we" being the faithful and unfaithful, alike) are sitting here 2-3000 years later, slicing and dicing and parsing every single one of those single words, as if they had face validity and held great secrets to be revealed and understood. (See thread on the words for Hell, as example). When the objective reality is that those words sprung directly from the minds and hands of men, further translated and massaged and edited by later men, each with their own agenda... with no more reason to be the "Word of God" than anything written on this forum today. For that matter, the words on this forum are considerably more reliable and informed on topics related to the world and how it works, simply due to advancement of knowledge. As Rafius notes, the ancient texts aren't even reliable sources for direct words from the characters they quote, given the length of time elapsed, the lack of concurrent recordings, the motivations of later scribes, etc, etc. The only reason we don't view with the same critical eye we might give to Joseph Smith's golden plates is longevity. Yet here we sit, citing scripture, picking it apart, reinterpreting, hanging on every word.
Please pardon the rant! It actually does relate to the topic of the thread, because recognizing and accepting this reality contributed to my own journey away from Christianity (I don't like "loss of faith" as a term, with the implication there was something there to be found, and something we are poorer without).
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ETA: I do have an academic admiration for those (including several among us) who are able to slice and dice and parse those ancient texts, shedding light on original languages, later translations, intended meanings, likely sources, date of origin, etc. I don't have the same admiration for those who cite "Jesus says that..." or "God tells us that...", as if that had face validity.
Last edited by HeelaMonster; 02-01-2019 at 08:34 AM..
Exactly. If your family is engaging in activities that are not healthy, then engaging in activities that are healthy may tear one away from their family. And it is more valid than the claim "stand behind your family no matter how much suffering they inflict on others."
Right, I think there are ways the modern reader might find wisdom for their own life in things written long ago because there are “spiritual “ principles that transcend time.
Yes, it is. Even more amazing is that we ("we" being the faithful and unfaithful, alike) are sitting here 2-3000 years later, slicing and dicing and parsing every single one of those single words, as if they had face validity and held great secrets to be revealed and understood. (See thread on the words for Hell, as example). When the objective reality is that those words sprung directly from the minds and hands of men, further translated and massaged and edited by later men, each with their own agenda... with no more reason to be the "Word of God" than anything written on this forum today. For that matter, the words on this forum are considerably more reliable and informed on topics related to the world and how it works, simply due to advancement of knowledge. As Rafius notes, the ancient texts aren't even reliable sources for direct words from the characters they quote, given the length of time elapsed, the lack of concurrent recordings, the motivations of later scribes, etc, etc. The only reason we don't view with the same critical eye we might give to Joseph Smith's golden plates is longevity. Yet here we sit, citing scripture, picking it apart, reinterpreting, hanging on every word.
Please pardon the rant! It actually does relate to the topic of the thread, because recognizing and accepting this reality contributed to my own journey away from Christianity (I don't like "loss of faith" as a term, with the implication there was something there to be found, and something we are poorer without).
~~~~~~~~
ETA: I do have an academic admiration for those (including several among us) who are able to slice and dice and parse those ancient texts, shedding light on original languages, later translations, intended meanings, likely sources, date of origin, etc. I don't have the same admiration for those who cite "Jesus says that..." or "God tells us that...", as if that had face validity.
I share your sentiments, at times. But the fact of the matter is that many people cut their teeth on the Bible. We were raised with it permeating our reality from infancy. So, it's not really amazing that even when some of us have come to understand that the Bible is not the "Word of God", we're still talking about it. It's a part of us, for better or worse, so why not try to make it for better? Some people do that by simply blocking it from their thoughts, perhaps. For others of us, we find ways that things within it relate to "spiritual"* principles that we've found have worth in our life, sans the more mythical aspects of Christianity.
Correct. One must weigh what is said, regardless of whom supposedly said it, to determine if it has any value.
Using what criterion to judge it? Go on, say it....normal standards of human morality...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Right, I think there are ways the modern reader might find wisdom for their own life in things written long ago because there are “spiritual “ principles that transcend time.
Can you list a few of them? Because I can't think of a single one, other than Evolved survival instincts that some misguided people credit to some divine source.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
I share your sentiments, at times. But the fact of the matter is that many people cut their teeth on the Bible. We were raised with it permeating our reality from infancy. So, it's not really amazing that even when some of us have come to understand that the Bible is not the "Word of God", we're still talking about it. It's a part of us, for better or worse, so why not try to make it for better? Some people do that by simply blocking it from their thoughts, perhaps. For others of us, we find ways that things within it relate to "spiritual"* principles that we've found have worth in our life, sans the more mythical aspects of Christianity.
I suppose that's an improvement, but it's still putting Bible as a barrier between ones'self and seeing things as they are. But it is an improvement, I'll grant you that.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 02-01-2019 at 11:26 AM..
Yes, it is. Even more amazing is that we ("we" being the faithful and unfaithful, alike) are sitting here 2-3000 years later, slicing and dicing and parsing every single one of those single words, as if they had face validity and held great secrets to be revealed and understood. (See thread on the words for Hell, as example). When the objective reality is that those words sprung directly from the minds and hands of men, further translated and massaged and edited by later men, each with their own agenda... with no more reason to be the "Word of God" than anything written on this forum today. For that matter, the words on this forum are considerably more reliable and informed on topics related to the world and how it works, simply due to advancement of knowledge. As Rafius notes, the ancient texts aren't even reliable sources for direct words from the characters they quote, given the length of time elapsed, the lack of concurrent recordings, the motivations of later scribes, etc, etc. The only reason we don't view with the same critical eye we might give to Joseph Smith's golden plates is longevity. Yet here we sit, citing scripture, picking it apart, reinterpreting, hanging on every word.
Please pardon the rant! It actually does relate to the topic of the thread, because recognizing and accepting this reality contributed to my own journey away from Christianity (I don't like "loss of faith" as a term, with the implication there was something there to be found, and something we are poorer without).
~~~~~~~~
ETA: I do have an academic admiration for those (including several among us) who are able to slice and dice and parse those ancient texts, shedding light on original languages, later translations, intended meanings, likely sources, date of origin, etc. I don't have the same admiration for those who cite "Jesus says that..." or "God tells us that...", as if that had face validity.
I'm right with you on this. I do respect those who actually understand the text and background but not those who cherry -pick and Interpret scripture to support whatever they want to believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
How generous of you.
He's a good lad, is Ozzy. The ones who worry me are Christians who do not have his great -souled generosity of spirit and do Not feel that we should be free to exist...just as soon as they get the power to impose their views on everyone else.
Using what criterion to judge it? Go on, say it....normal standards of human morality...
Was there anything I said that you took to mean I was indicating differently?
Quote:
Can you list a few of them? Because I can't think of a single one, other than Evolved survival instincts that some misguided people credit to some divine source.
Since it seems your agenda is to argue about the origin of principles that I have found worthwhile (divine vs. human) I’ll just say, it doesn’t matter to me what the origin is. As I said, what matters is what is said, not who said it.
Quote:
I suppose that's an improvement, but it's still putting Bible as a barrier between ones'self and seeing things as they are. But it is an improvement, I'll grant you that.
I didn’t put the barrier there. My upbringing did, just as I think anyone’s upbringing endows them with barriers to seeing things as they objectively are. It’s the human condition.
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It actually does relate to the topic of the thread, because recognizing and accepting this reality contributed to my own journey away from Christianity (I don't like "loss of faith" as a term, with the implication there was something there to be found, and something we are poorer without).
