Why I Lost My Christian Faith (priest, gospels, bible, quote)
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Good grief Mystic. You are unable to follow simple logical arguments like 'if evidentialism is dead, it is irrelevant to how we use evidence'? Or a claim without backup is without force? But then you seem also to reverse logic. reversal of burden of proof, sneering at the principle of parsimony as 'The Friar's dictum' -as if that invalidated it. Yes, you would probably think that Vic's theist -headed arguments are perfectly sound.
I'm still waiting, by the way, for any response to my points - that he has crashed and burned over 'evidentialism' and that he used double standards with 'squared circle' and 'God's Plan' both of which are improbable, but undisprovable (1). Something other than the usual denial.
(1) there is a logical 'get out' of course - let's see whether he spots it. If he does, I'm ready with the counter.
Good grief, Arq. You just don't get that Vic is trying to expose your unsupported and unsupportable PREMISES that are the fallacious underpinning of your otherwise useless arguments pretending that No God MUST be the default. I will reluctantly refrain from adjectives like obtuse, thick-headed, or oblivious to describe the failure to see the issue your unwarranted premises pose.
I'm on the ignore list, too, Thrill, so don't go feeling too special.
Thanks for your reply. I only saw one question for me, so I'll respond to it.
You've probably seen at least one post of mine where I've declared my belief that God IS love . I see love, energetically, as creative and life-giving, and I believe it is foundational to our reality. Perhaps God could be conceptualized as a force, but I do think that force is conscious and aware, though I'm still working that one out in my head.
I like the analogy of each of us being a wave of the ocean that is God, so in no way separate, though it feels that way. So, as I see it, God is within each of us, Thrill, our very life force, driving our spiritual (and physical) evolution individually and collectively. My belief/hope is that God's activity/energy can be tuned into, more consciously than most of us do, on an individual basis, participated in, experienced and expressed in ways that are unique to each of us. I don't think I've tuned in very well yet. If/when I do, I'll let you know what I learn. But my assumption is that the more we tune in, individually and collectively, the more we will see God in action, because God is acting through us. I think it's very apparent that there are people who are more tuned in, and I want to be like them when I grow up.
I see.
For me God isn't needed for love to be felt in this world. I know that old axiom, "God is love" still lives on like the Energizer bunny ("It keep going and going and going.") but honestly I think man can love just fine without God. I know atheists who love their fellow man more passionately than most Christians. The homeless Victoria Osteen turned away from Lakewood during Hurricane Harvey lest they dirty the expensive Persian carpeting lining her beautifully coiffed church were taken in by non-denominational groups and that aptly demonstrated that humans can function lovingly just fine without God's participation. God, being a neutral force in the universe I feel, doesn't demonstrate love or hate, just indifference. I'd love it if He showed us something that proves He loves us, but kids under 5 still die by the tens of millions all over the world each year from the most horrible causes--natural disasters, abuse, neglect, disease, starvation--and God's love somehow manages not to find them. So sad.
when all else fails blurt out "yeah, but there is no first cause god thing". lmao, no first cause god thingie, that's just funny.
You aren't funny, Arach, just sad.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Good grief, Arq. You just don't get that Vic is trying to expose your unsupported and unsupportable PREMISES that are the fallacious underpinning of your otherwise useless arguments pretending that No God MUST be the default. I will reluctantly refrain from adjectives like obtuse, thick-headed, or oblivious to describe the failure to see the issue your unwarranted premises pose.
Apart from your unsupported denunciations, can you say what's wrong with my rebuttals of Vic's arguments? It'd better be good as I shall nail you on this, otherwise. Oh, and don't even think about trying to force 'No God Exists!' on atheism as a claim that we have to justify. The atheist position is that we don't deny it - we disbelieve it until decent evidence is presented.' Off you go. Validate Vic's reiterated argument from 'evidentialism is dead' if you can.
Apart from your unsupported denunciations, can you say what's wrong with my rebuttals of Vic's arguments? It'd better be good as I shall nail you on this, otherwise. Oh, and don't even think about trying to force 'No God Exists!' on atheism as a claim that we have to justify. The atheist position is that we don't deny it - we disbelieve it until decent evidence is presented.' Off you go. Validate Vic's reiterated argument from 'evidentialism is dead' if you can.
I light of the unattributed adjectives, any such attempts would be fruitless. You truly and sincerely just do not see the problem with the "Givens" you rely on - AT ALL!
For me God isn't needed for love to be felt in this world. I know that old axiom, "God is love" still lives on like the Energizer bunny ("It keep going and going and going.") but honestly I think man can love just fine without God. I know atheists who love their fellow man more passionately than most Christians.
The homeless Victoria Osteen turned away from Lakewood during Hurricane Harvey lest they dirty the expensive Persian carpeting lining her beautifully coiffed church were taken in by non-denominational groups and that aptly demonstrated that humans can function lovingly just fine without God's participation.
Which doesn’t negate what I said, of course. Why bring up Christians vs. atheists vs. anyone in the context of “God is within EACH of us�
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God, being a neutral force in the universe I feel, doesn't demonstrate love or hate, just indifference. I'd love it if He showed us something that proves He loves us, but kids under 5 still die by the tens of millions all over the world each year from the most horrible causes--natural disasters, abuse, neglect, disease, starvation--and God's love somehow manages not to find them. So sad.
As I’ve said elsewhere, I can understand the thinking that leads people to the conclusion that God is absent. I was there for a while, myself. But I’ve explained why I don’t see it that way anymore and why I believe it’s worth the effort to “tune inâ€. Ymmv.
I was going to point out in that thread of Mike's that the video he posted, not surprisingly, doesn't deal with early hominids dating back 400,000 years to Neanderthals which died out about 40,000 years ago just as Cro-Magnons were coming in to establish the Homo sapien (modern) lineage. The film deceptively, I feel, tries to bypass the idea we evolved from lower forms and instead tries to limit evolution to the lower animal kingdom and then separates this evolution from Adam and Eve, where the film, if it had allowed itself to go there, would have said, "Then after God allowed evolution to finish its job on the plant and lower animal kingdoms God made man out of the dust of the earth 6000 years ago, as Genesis correctly states".
Oh, good grief. At 9:00 minutes in the video.
''It is possible that God used the process of natural selection to bring about life on this planet and then God separated man as a distinct moral creation to be different from the rest of life.''
In other words, the narrator is positing the possibility that man evolved from lower life forms, and then was in some sense morally separated from the rest of animal life.
So Mike is a tiny bit less fundamental than he used to be but I feel he's still not ready to say that man evolved from lower forms, but was still created by God as a fully evolved modern man as Genesis describes. Am I right, Mike? Let's wait and see.
No, I don't believe that Adam was literally made from the dust of the ground or that Eve was built from one of his ribs.
As I clearly said in post #7 of that now closed thread, ''I don't have a problem with God using natural selection to bring about all the various species of life on earth, including man, and then selecting two persons (Adam and Eve) and setting them apart for His purposes, or something along those lines, however that works out exactly.''
''It is possible that God used the process of natural selection to bring about life on this planet and then God separated man as a distinct moral creation to be different from the rest of life.''
In other words, the narrator is positing the possibility that man evolved from lower life forms, and then was in some sense morally separated from the rest of animal life.
No, I don't believe that Adam was literally made from the dust of the ground or that Eve was built from one of his ribs.
As I clearly said in post #7 of that now closed thread, ''I don't have a problem with God using natural selection to bring about all the various species of life on earth, including man, and then selecting two persons (Adam and Eve) and setting them apart for His purposes, or something along those lines, however that works out exactly.''
That's as far as this goes. That thread was unfortunately closed and I don't think the moderators would appreciate pursuing the topic here.
Well, I appreciate you getting back to me on that, Mike. I missed that part, I must confess, as I glanced up at some point in the film and noticed the thread had been locked and I thought, "Oh no! I just spent almost 11 minutes watching this and now I can't respond??????"
OK, so you are addressing fundamentalists by using fundamentalist thinking. Within the framework of that mindset, your question makes sense.
But, I am curious. YOU were a fundamentalist until you no longer believed, as was Pleroo, as was L8. How were YOU able to just close your eyes and stick YOUR head in the sand like an ostrich?
I can give you my own answer. I was semi-fundie growing up in that I belonged to a church that taught that the Bible was literal; however, I had a practical, logical, engineer father who at home told us things such as that the creation wasn't literally in seven days, the entire world wasn't covered with water during the flood, etc., so we dared to question, at least in part. But I do remember when my mind wandered into the territory of wondering if something wasn't true, the ingrained fear raised its head and whispered that I shouldn't think such thoughts, I shouldn't ask such questions, or something bad might happen. God was just waiting to get me for such sinfulness.
It took to adulthood to be able to say, "Well, God/Jesus, you're supposed to love us, but I sure as heck see no evidence that you love ME" and ditch traditional Christianity.
So, that's probably the answer to how they can pretend. Fear.
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YOU were a fundamentalist until you no longer believed, as was Pleroo, as was L8. How were YOU able to just close your eyes and stick YOUR head in the sand like an ostrich?
Actually, I think from the time I "officially" lost my faith circa 2013 or so I was starting threads voraciously opposed to Christianity until the rules changed in the Christianity forum. And let me take this opportunity as I cannot rep you to express my appreciation of your tolerance of some of my...er.."outbursts". I know it's a difficult balancing act.
So I never really buried my head in the sand. As I read and studied the history of Christianity and learned how conniving and duplicitous early church leaders were duping dumb-as-post pagans into joining Christianity I became more and more anti-Christian. The nefarious tactics they exercised was beyond my ken.
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It took to adulthood to be able to say, "Well, God/Jesus, you're supposed to love us, but I sure as heck see no evidence that you love ME" and ditch traditional Christianity.
Well, that's about how it happened to me too but it took a long while before I put two and two together after numerous prayers never got a peep from God. But it's the fear factor that I think plays a large part in driving people away from Christianity. The more they push that the more people flee. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!
''It is possible that God used the process of natural selection to bring about life on this planet and then God separated man as a distinct moral creation to be different from the rest of life.''
In other words, the narrator is positing the possibility that man evolved from lower life forms, and then was in some sense morally separated from the rest of animal life.
No, I don't believe that Adam was literally made from the dust of the ground or that Eve was built from one of his ribs.
As I clearly said in post #7 of that now closed thread, ''I don't have a problem with God using natural selection to bring about all the various species of life on earth, including man, and then selecting two persons (Adam and Eve) and setting them apart for His purposes, or something along those lines, however that works out exactly.''
There is a way of characterizing the above figuratively. ALL life is literally and essentially "dust of the earth" or more specifically stardust. This means that man indeed evolved from lower life forms (dust of the earth), and then was in some sense morally separated (breathed a living Soul) from the rest of animal life.
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. I see love, energetically, as creative and life-giving, and I believe it is foundational to our reality. Perhaps God could be conceptualized as a force, but I do think that force is conscious and aware, though I'm still working that one out in my head. 
Am I right, Mike? Let's wait and see. 
But it's the fear factor that I think plays a large part in driving people away from Christianity. The more they push that the more people flee. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! 
