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From the time I was little, I would lie awake at night and wonder, Where did God come from? He must have been "born" somehow. From what?
When I asked my mother, "When was God born?" she said, "God has always existed, so God was never born." (Thanks, Mom. I'll send you my therapist bill.)
He had to come from somewhere/something. Right? So...from where? Or what? And what was "there" before God came into being? Was there just...nothing? And how could anything come from nothing? (In fact, it was the "universe--something from nothing" thread that made me think to ask this question.)
I'm not any mainstream religion but I do believe in God. I'm curious what others of any religion or philosophy believe on this.
I was told once, by a Christian, that God is the source of all creation. Therefore God created Himself. In other words, God preexisted His own existence. Which makes about as much logical sense as many other elements of Christian doctrine, I suppose.
When we consider the question of origin, we are immediately confronted by two possibilities. One is that God, or the universe, suddenly POPPED into existence, where nothing had existed before. Is this conclusion a reasonable one? Did God simply pop into existence from nothing? Unfortunately, since God has no physical form or physical existence that we might study and examine, God's existence, from our perspective, is exactly the same as an exercise in imagining. We can certainly imagine God popping into existence from nothing easily enough. What of the universe? The universe is not imaginary of course. It has physical reality that CAN be studied and examined. The current conclusion based on observation concerning the origin of the universe is described in a theory known as the big bang. The concept of the big bang is founded on certain actual observations. One is that the universe currently appears to be expanding. Which implies that at some point in time all of the energy/matter of the universe was all together in a single dense state. Another observation is that the background radiation of the big bang, the echo of a cosmic explosion, can still be detected.
So did the universe simply POP into existence where nothing had existed before? Or was there a before prior the big bang?
It is often declared that everything has a beginning. This is actually a misunderstanding of what is actually occurring however. Everything that we observe is actually a continuation of that which preceded it. Event inevitably follows cause, without fail. As far back as we can extrapolate. All the way back to the big bang. And what we actually observe is an unbroken chain of events preceded by an earlier cause. Cause and effect! Every effect is the result of an earlier cause without fail! What of God? Does cause and effect imply that God is the result of an earlier cause? Is God the creation of another creator Being? Since God is an exercise in imagining, all conclusions concerning God have equal value. Each person is free to choose the answer that pleases them.
The second possibility is that God, or the universe, have existed eternally. Humans have a finite existence. So the concept of eternity is very difficult to grasp. Is the concept a valid one? The concept of eternity cannot be demonstrated to be logically invalid! Does this mean that God is eternal? Again, "since God is an exercise in imagining, all conclusions concerning God have equal value." Could the universe, which DOES have physical form and physical existence, and therefore CAN be studied and examined, be eternal?
If the universe is the result of a cosmic explosion we call the big bang, then the universe we are studying and examining necessarily had a beginning. But only in its current configuration. Much as we all had a beginning, but only in our current configuration. None of us simply popped into existence from nothing. We are the result of events that preceded our conception. And we are made of material that also preceded our conception. We were born; the result of cause preceding effect.
So was the universe BORN, the result of cause preceding effect?
It is observed that matter is simply a form of energy. Energy takes many forms. One of which is matter, according to E=MC².
Wikipedia
Law of conservation of energy
In physics and chemistry, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant; it is said to be conserved over time. This law means that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it can only be transformed or transferred from one form to another. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy
If energy cannot be created or destroyed, then it is eternal by definition. The big bang is simply as far back as we can interpolate, and the universe, OUR universe, may well have been born as a result of an unbroken chain of earlier causes.
Does that imply that "God did it? Well which is therefore the more reliable possibility? That which we can IMAGINE to be true? Or that which we can OBSERVE to be true?
Except, the process to develop the computer and how it reacts is based on a set of discovered science that works the same, every single time, no matter who uses the computer.
Gods? Meh, they are all over the place.
You're correct on how it works once what was imagined/imaged/envisioned was brought into matter.
The key to understanding the origin of God involves the answer to the question, "Could God have created time itself?" For once you recognize that God could never have created time itself from within a completely timeless realm, then the answer to the origin of God becomes simple.
Some physicists have noted that St. Augustine of Hippo's (A.D. 354 - 430) idea of creation was very similar to the Big Bang theory.
Religions people (almost everybody was at that time) wondered (and some still do) what God did before he created the Universe – for instance since it was thought that he had existed forever, didn't he get bored with nothing to do?
Augustine said that the universe was created in an instant, and not in time, but with time. In other words, just as in the Big Bang, there was no time before creation – time began when the Universe began.
This confounded people, just as the Big Bang theory does today.
St Augustine was extremely intelligent. Had he been born in our time, he might have been a scientist rather than a bishop and a theologian.
No hardly, but someone saw it in their minds eye envisioned it before the first one was ever made.
But the imagination wasn't based on Nothing; it was based on a real thing that had really existed before.
Run the video back. Infinite regression to a hairy dude chipping a flint. All these things are what we call ideas, but aren't they actually based on experiment with real things? But now you have made we wonder about another elephant in the room that i'd missed...genetic transmission of talent. God - given they used to say, but could Evolution explain it?
But the imagination wasn't based on Nothing; it was based on a real thing that had really existed before.
Run the video back. Infinite regression to a hairy dude chipping a flint. All these things are what we call ideas, but aren't they actually based on experiment with real things? But now you have made we wonder about another elephant in the room that i'd missed...genetic transmission of talent. God - given they used to say, but could Evolution explain it?
All kinds of things enrich the imagination which helps us dream new things into matter.
I don't know that there is any elephant in the room. Normally we think of artists, poets, writers and so forth having great imaginations but scientists, ordinary people, we all have it. Imagination helps us to see what others think is impossible.
I do think there is something to genetic transmission of talent. Ever watch that show "Finding Your Roots," the genealogy show? They take someone famous, trace back their family tree and its amazing how some relative from the past was known for the same talent this famous person has today. And they never knew about them. So there may be something to that all being passed down. God-given or are we our ancestors?
All kinds of things enrich the imagination which helps us dream new things into matter.
I don't know that there is any elephant in the room. Normally we think of artists, poets, writers and so forth having great imaginations but scientists, ordinary people, we all have it. Imagination helps us to see what others think is impossible.
I do think there is something to genetic transmission of talent. Ever watch that show "Finding Your Roots," the genealogy show? They take someone famous, trace back their family tree and its amazing how some relative from the past was known for the same talent this famous person has today. And they never knew about them. So there may be something to that all being passed down. God-given or are we our ancestors?
I had to look back to see what the point was.
In reply to a comment that God came from where other mythical beings came from, you posted:
Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeemoments
The "imaginations of human beings" is where we get most everything, including this computer I'm using to type this message. Imagination is everything.
No argument, really. The materials we use are real and the 'imagination' is real in a way. Perhaps the point is about what of the imagination is 'real' like instinct which isn't 'written on our hearts' but in our DNA, and Genius, which may, as we touched on, be genetically -linked. That was sometimes ascribed to 'God',too.
Basically, we are back to the old and prolonged debunk: questiones that were once answered "God" and even presented as evidence for god are now answered by science. Reality is where science comes from and imagination without reality is where gods come from.
No argument, really. The materials we use are real and the 'imagination' is real in a way. Perhaps the point is about what of the imagination is 'real' like instinct which isn't 'written on our hearts' but in our DNA, and Genius, which may, as we touched on, be genetically -linked. That was sometimes ascribed to 'God',too.
Basically, we are back to the old and prolonged debunk: questiones that were once answered "God" and even presented as evidence for god are now answered by science. Reality is where science comes from and imagination without reality is where gods come from.
Yea everything comes out of the imagination. Picturing that man would one day land on the Moon, Gods, computers, and yes even fairies and leprechauns come from the imagination. Its wonderful really.
I think where we differ is possibly how we define "God." A lot of what I read here is a reaction to the Biblical God. Thats not God to me. God is us. We are God. You are God. I am God. There is no separation so there isn't anything to find on the outside. Someone could one day write a story about you as God, write up your myth, list your deeds and how you treated others, what would it say? There have been many Gods/Goddesses. We are all potentially just as Divine as them.
i just don't call that 'God'. Not because there is a real problem with it, but because it can cause misunderstandings. And of course the unscrupulous Religion pusher - as we had just now with a Quotemined clip of Ehrman saying that there was a Historical Jesus - can try to make it look like Hawking (wanting to know 'The Mind of God') was a Christian. In fact there was any amount of fiddling to make him a deathbed conversion.
i just don't call that 'God'. Not because there is a real problem with it, but because it can cause misunderstandings. And of course the unscrupulous Religion pusher - as we had just now with a Quotemined clip of Ehrman saying that there was a Historical Jesus - can try to make it look like Hawking (wanting to know 'The Mind of God') was a Christian. In fact there was any amount of fiddling to make him a deathbed conversion.
Thats perfectly ok that we don't view God the same way and understand your reasons.
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