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If God had created humans as immortal from the beginning, obviously God would have had a reason for wanting immortal humans.
Yet, for some as yet inexplicable reason, he put the infamous forbidden tree right smack in the middle of Eden as a big temptation for Adam and, later, Eve -- who, by the way, hadn't even been created yet when God warned Adam (and only Adam) not to eat the forbidden fruit. Eve, as best as we can tell, had NO IDEA that any fruit in the garden was considered off limits.
Well, perhaps you can see where I'm going with this already.
The only thing that makes sense -- and yet it still doesn't *actually* make sense -- was that God created humans to be immortal JUST so he could take our immortality away. In other words, it is akin to parents buying their child the toy of their dreams for the express purpose of the parents having something to take away from the child when the child misbehaves. No other reason. That, by anyone's standards, would be some messed up parents.
Because God isn't going to sabotage his own plan. It's not as if he's raging in Heaven saying something like, "Dammit! I wanted immortal pets ... immortal, I say! That way I can hear their praises and smell their burnt offerings for as long as I rule the cosmos! Is that too much for an omnipotent god to ask for?! But Eve had to go and scrw it all up by eating that fruit! Dammit, dammit, dammit!" *sigh* "Now I have to take their immortality away. NOW what am I going to do? Now I have to come up with this convoluted system of original sin, redemption, offering my own son - who is really just me in disguise - as a sacrifice to myself, and all kinds of other things because now I have to deal with humans dying all over the place. Where am I going to even PUT all of those souls?!" *sigh* "I guess I'll have to create an actual heaven for those morons." *shoulders slump* "And a hell, too, for all the baby-eating non-believers and infidels of other faiths. Things would have been infinitely easier if Eve hadn't ....."
*rant continues for the next 4,000 years which is why Yahweh, Judaism, Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, and all the rest of it disappears completely from the historical record until God finally finishes whining and realizes his Chosen People managed to get themselves into bondage while God wasn't paying attention*
See what I mean?
This is just yet one more glaring inconsistency regarding this entire story. Either God gave humanity immortality for no other reason than to take it away as part of his big punishment for disobedience -- or -- God really had planned for humans to be immortal but felt the punishment was actually worth derailing his entire cosmic/divine plan over -- even though he should have known precisely what would happen in any event. As if Adam and Eve's disobedience caught God completely flatfooted.
"I had NO idea they were going to eat that fruit! Dammit!" *more divine ranting*
Yet if you put two children in a room with a loaded gun and leave it sitting there on the table, warn the kids not to play with it, and then leave the room indefinitely -- well, do you really need to be an omniscient god to figure out what will eventually yet inevitably happen?
How anyone can believe any of this fanciful craziness beggers the imagination.
Truly.
The irrationality and outright foolishness of the narrative should be obvious to everyone, Shirina. That it isn't is entirely the fault of religious leaders demanding belief in the primitive and childish interpretations of our primitive and childish ancestors as a sign of faith in God. That our ancestors were childish compared to us is easily seen in the differences that even recent generations have in their maturity. Watch a serious and dramatic silent movie and gauge your own reaction. The generation watching them originally took them very seriously but what is your reaction? If there is that much difference in the maturity of even a few generations past, what do you imagine is the difference from generations millennia past?
8 The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. 9 And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of lifewas also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
So there was TWO trees?
“Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you[f] shall surely die.”
So they were allowed to eat of the tree of life? Knowledge was prohibited then? Also, they surely didn't die.
Yes, you are correct...there was two distinct trees according to the text. That's pretty interesting, thanks.
The irrationality and outright foolishness of the narrative should be obvious to everyone, Shirina. That it isn't is entirely the fault of religious leaders demanding belief in the primitive and childish interpretations of our primitive and childish ancestors as a sign of faith in God. That our ancestors were childish compared to us is easily seen in the differences that even recent generations have in their maturity. Watch a serious and dramatic silent movie and gauge your own reaction. The generation watching them originally took them very seriously but what is your reaction? If there is that much difference in the maturity of even a few generations past, what do you imagine is the difference from generations millennia past?
Heh, you probably know, then, that the first ever movie released to the public in theaters was The Great Train Robbery.
When the audience saw and heard the train for the first time -- especially since the camera angle had the train coming straight toward the audience, many people actually dove into the aisles thinking they were going to be hit by a two-dimensional image on a screen.
It just goes to show you what ignorance does to people -- and why there is a direct correlation, if not causation -- between the level of education and how fundamentalist/evangelical your religious beliefs are.
The less educated, the more ignorant -- the more fundamentalist/evangelical you are.
At least in America. European and Asian populations, as well as Canada, are better educated by several orders of magnitude than most Americans hence why America is the home of stupid conspiracy theories, science-denial, the evolution controversy, teaching intelligent design in science class, and an entire political system that seeks to keep our children ignorant (this has been openly stated, mind you).
And despite our so-called Christian morality, we have the worst health care system in the industrialized world, one of the worst violent crime rates, high infant mortality rates, low life expectancy, relatively low literacy rates, a HUGE prison population, abysmal teen pregnancy rates, pedophiles around every corner, weekly mass shootings, more serial killers than the rest of the world combined, horribly low high school graduation rates and ... well ... it goes on and on.
Is religion to blame for all of that? In many cases, religion doesn't do anything to curb it ... in many cases, religion seeks to encourage it.
Because religion encourages ignorance. It always has, always will -- which is one of the major reasons why Catholic mass was in Latin for a thousand years. Keep the "forbidden knowledge" away from the peasants.
I know the following is somewhat off-topic, but this isn't the kind of thing to start a new thread over, either, so I'll just say it.
Fact is, we're losing this fight. We almost certainly WILL lose this fight. I don't mean atheists vs. religion. No, I mean ignorance vs. reason.
One can still believe in God -- even the Christian God -- and do so without throwing reason, logic, and knowledge out the window. Well, in my view, you have to throw SOME reason, logic, and knowledge out the window to actually believe in Yahweh.
But you know what I mean. At any rate, this nation is being crushed intellectually -- as if because America is too young a country to have experienced the Dark Age so Americans have become desperate to experience one for themselves. Ever have a friend who tried a new food and practically threw up upon tasting it -- then he slides his plate toward you and says, "Oh my god, this takes like shyte, here, try some!" Well, Americans have become like the person who actually DOES try it only to nearly vomit themselves. The smart person would say, "Uhm, no thanks, I'll pass."
Anyhow, I think everything changed for me a few months ago when I had a nasty screaming-match argument with my own father -- who has, like so many Americans now, have wrapped himself in his own bubble of alternate reality which bears NO resemblance to the truth; a bubble filled with fundamentalist Catholicism and right-wing political propaganda, the old "this is a Christian nation!" crap and how all the Founders were Christian. You know the drill. And even though my father personally put me in a special school for geniuses (I'm not saying I AM one, mind you), and though he knows I have degrees in history and have been trained as both an educator and as an information specialist, he wouldn't believe anything that came out of my mouth -- literally nothing, not even the things that were demonstrably true.
I was so demoralized after that ... I've lost the desire to keep fighting a losing battle. If Americans want to be superstitious, ignorant, fearful, xenophobic, bigoted, and rascist, well, what can I possibly say to change their minds? If Americans want to embrace authoritarianism, fascism, Nazism, and extreme right-wing ideology, well, I can't change their minds about that, either. Yet these days I see the cross and the swastika marching side by side in the common cause of extremism, stupidity, and the denial of reality.
Higher education is denigrated as a waste of time -- my father, too, disapproved of me going to college at all and thought I should just learn a skill and work. Be a good little machine and know nothing besides what is programmed into you, I guess. To hell with knowledge for its own sake, right? Our government has been working tirelessly to ensure that our children learn next to nothing in school -- especially things like critical thought, skepticism, how to tell fact from fiction, comparing and contrasting, how to analyze, parse,and synthesize data, and all the rest of it. No, just teach them that America was founded on Judeo-Christian values, there is no freedom FROM religion, atheists are evil and lack morals, McCarthyism was a good thing ... and so was slavery, and how to vote straight-ticket Republican in every election.
So ... one thing that has kept me from posting over the past six or seven months is that I've been busy preparing to emigrate back to England and leave this drain-circling nation behind me. I don't belong here any more, and since we're not dealing with rational people willing to have rational discussions -- everything is based on fanatical loyalty to their own reality and religious narratives now -- there's just no point in trying anymore.
I'm going to wait and see how these mid-term elections play out and if they prove disastrous for our side, I'll be on the next plane out of here. And I still might be. Yes, I'll still post here and whatnot, but meh, my heart's not in it.
Again, this isn't about atheism vs. Christianity because I know there are rational Christians who realize you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. You don't have to believe in a literal Genesis, believe in the Flood story, or deny the existence of transitional species in order to be a Christian. But far too many Americans have developed a love affair with being wrong -- and worse still, the want everyone else to be wrong, too. Those who refuse to submit to ignorance and supestition are castigated, ridiculed, bullied, insulted, ostracized, and propagandized about. Yeah, WE have no morals, don'tchya know.
Yet if not for our secular laws, this post alone would have had me in a prison being tortured until I was willing to publicly renounce what I'm now saying and beg the church for forgiveness.
I could say a lot more about this, but I won't. I just wanted to get it off my chest, so to speak. So to hell with it all ...
Also, anyone who responds, feel free to send me a private message so the thread doesn't get derailed more than I've already derailed it.
Heh, you probably know, then, that the first ever movie released to the public in theaters was The Great Train Robbery.
When the audience saw and heard the train for the first time -- especially since the camera angle had the train coming straight toward the audience, many people actually dove into the aisles thinking they were going to be hit by a two-dimensional image on a screen.
It just goes to show you what ignorance does to people -- and why there is a direct correlation, if not causation -- between the level of education and how fundamentalist/evangelical your religious beliefs are.
The less educated, the more ignorant -- the more fundamentalist/evangelical you are.
At least in America. European and Asian populations, as well as Canada, are better educated by several orders of magnitude than most Americans hence why America is the home of stupid conspiracy theories, science-denial, the evolution controversy, teaching intelligent design in science class, and an entire political system that seeks to keep our children ignorant (this has been openly stated, mind you).
And despite our so-called Christian morality, we have the worst health care system in the industrialized world, one of the worst violent crime rates, high infant mortality rates, low life expectancy, relatively low literacy rates, a HUGE prison population, abysmal teen pregnancy rates, pedophiles around every corner, weekly mass shootings, more serial killers than the rest of the world combined, horribly low high school graduation rates and ... well ... it goes on and on.
Is religion to blame for all of that? In many cases, religion doesn't do anything to curb it ... in many cases, religion seeks to encourage it.
Because religion encourages ignorance. It always has, always will -- which is one of the major reasons why Catholic mass was in Latin for a thousand years. Keep the "forbidden knowledge" away from the peasants.
I know the following is somewhat off-topic, but this isn't the kind of thing to start a new thread over, either, so I'll just say it.
Fact is, we're losing this fight. We almost certainly WILL lose this fight. I don't mean atheists vs. religion. No, I mean ignorance vs. reason.
One can still believe in God -- even the Christian God -- and do so without throwing reason, logic, and knowledge out the window. Well, in my view, you have to throw SOME reason, logic, and knowledge out the window to actually believe in Yahweh.
But you know what I mean. At any rate, this nation is being crushed intellectually -- as if because America is too young a country to have experienced the Dark Age so Americans have become desperate to experience one for themselves. Ever have a friend who tried a new food and practically threw up upon tasting it -- then he slides his plate toward you and says, "Oh my god, this takes like shyte, here, try some!" Well, Americans have become like the person who actually DOES try it only to nearly vomit themselves. The smart person would say, "Uhm, no thanks, I'll pass."
Anyhow, I think everything changed for me a few months ago when I had a nasty screaming-match argument with my own father -- who has, like so many Americans now, have wrapped himself in his own bubble of alternate reality which bears NO resemblance to the truth; a bubble filled with fundamentalist Catholicism and right-wing political propaganda, the old "this is a Christian nation!" crap and how all the Founders were Christian. You know the drill. And even though my father personally put me in a special school for geniuses (I'm not saying I AM one, mind you), and though he knows I have degrees in history and have been trained as both an educator and as an information specialist, he wouldn't believe anything that came out of my mouth -- literally nothing, not even the things that were demonstrably true.
I was so demoralized after that ... I've lost the desire to keep fighting a losing battle. If Americans want to be superstitious, ignorant, fearful, xenophobic, bigoted, and rascist, well, what can I possibly say to change their minds? If Americans want to embrace authoritarianism, fascism, Nazism, and extreme right-wing ideology, well, I can't change their minds about that, either. Yet these days I see the cross and the swastika marching side by side in the common cause of extremism, stupidity, and the denial of reality.
Higher education is denigrated as a waste of time -- my father, too, disapproved of me going to college at all and thought I should just learn a skill and work. Be a good little machine and know nothing besides what is programmed into you, I guess. To hell with knowledge for its own sake, right? Our government has been working tirelessly to ensure that our children learn next to nothing in school -- especially things like critical thought, skepticism, how to tell fact from fiction, comparing and contrasting, how to analyze, parse,and synthesize data, and all the rest of it. No, just teach them that America was founded on Judeo-Christian values, there is no freedom FROM religion, atheists are evil and lack morals, McCarthyism was a good thing ... and so was slavery, and how to vote straight-ticket Republican in every election.
So ... one thing that has kept me from posting over the past six or seven months is that I've been busy preparing to emigrate back to England and leave this drain-circling nation behind me. I don't belong here any more, and since we're not dealing with rational people willing to have rational discussions -- everything is based on fanatical loyalty to their own reality and religious narratives now -- there's just no point in trying anymore.
I'm going to wait and see how these mid-term elections play out and if they prove disastrous for our side, I'll be on the next plane out of here. And I still might be. Yes, I'll still post here and whatnot, but meh, my heart's not in it.
Again, this isn't about atheism vs. Christianity because I know there are rational Christians who realize you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. You don't have to believe in a literal Genesis, believe in the Flood story, or deny the existence of transitional species in order to be a Christian. But far too many Americans have developed a love affair with being wrong -- and worse still, the want everyone else to be wrong, too. Those who refuse to submit to ignorance and supestition are castigated, ridiculed, bullied, insulted, ostracized, and propagandized about. Yeah, WE have no morals, don'tchya know.
Yet if not for our secular laws, this post alone would have had me in a prison being tortured until I was willing to publicly renounce what I'm now saying and beg the church for forgiveness.
I could say a lot more about this, but I won't. I just wanted to get it off my chest, so to speak. So to hell with it all ...
Also, anyone who responds, feel free to send me a private message so the thread doesn't get derailed more than I've already derailed it.
Best wishes to you with your move to another country, and may you find happiness and peace of mind in your new home.
I understand the meaning of Christian compassion only TOO well.
I understand what the vaunted Christian moral compass REALLY means.
And they do, too.
Thanks to the most religious nation in the industrialized world, we have become a very Orwellian society where love means hate, tolerance means bigotry, diversity means racism, morality means apathy, community means tribalism, peace means war, liberty means oppression, freedom means bondage, and people like HER can wallow in their delusions until they draw their last breath and see nothing but darkness.
Because even if they ARE right and we are wrong -- that God really does exist, well, all of those people like you-know-who who have turned this nation into such a hateful little place will have to stand before their Creator-Judge and explain to him why they turned HIS religion into a goddamn joke.
I'll rest in the knowledge that, even if we atheists ARE wrong, the vast majority of American Christians will be dancing in the flames of Hell right next to me. Won't THAT be a sweet reunion?
24 included the statement, "As death was only decreed upon the human being"
in 26, you claimed "God said that Adam would die on the day that he ate of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil"
The Hebrew makes it clear that the consequence was a decree of a death penalty, not an immediate death. Adam lived on for a while after that eating but he died. So either your vision is correct and the death was on that day and the rest never happened, or the Hebrew is correct ("surely you shall die") and is confirmed by Adam's eventual death.
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