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I would rather revel in my beliefs, than find out that maybe, just maybe, they are not true.
In other words, are you afraid of the truth?
Fundies are terrified of it - if it invalidates any aspect of their favourite collection of old pamphlets.
Which it does. A lot.
Hence the invention of their Fundashields Of Determined Ignorance. If they deflect the truth with the sheer force of their deliberate obtuseness, it can't "hurt" them. So, they are diligent - with gusts up to maniacally obsessive - in avoiding it whenever possible. And cowering under their FODIs when they cannot.
What's really funny/ironic is, they're using some of the latest science to display their ignorance to the world.
And there is a lot more direct evidence to demonstrate that we are created beings.
Like, for instance:
a) Having to use the same "tube" to both breathe and eat, resulting in the choking deaths of untold thousands if not millions of people over the years -- the majority of them children and infants.
b) An inefficient digestive system that uses only a tiny fraction of the food we consume, causing us the need to "take a dump" -- which is little more than a brown ball of fatal bacteria which, in and of itself, has caused more deaths by disease than all the wars ever fought by humanity combined.
c) An optic nerve that hangs right down the center of our vision -- because God apparently had NO idea how to create an eyeball without a lot of complicated rods and cones, thus causing a blind spot when we look directly forward. This is why people are always "catching things out of the corner of their eye." We actually see better peripherally. If we try to look directly at anything, we lose a bit of clarity thanks to that optic nerve.
d) The inability to regenerate teeth -- despite Judaism and Christianity being both desert religions. This is important considering how many mummies have been found with extreme abscesses that would have been exceedingly painful while the person was still alive. The poor condition of Egyptian teeth was caused by sand getting into everything, including food -- and the sand acted like an abrasive that very quickly wore away the enamel of their teeth causing a lot of premature tooth decay. You'd think knowing that dentistry wouldn't take off for another 4,000 years, God would have been more merciful in that department.
e) How about a sex drive that never ever turns off? Women lose a lot of it after menopause, but for men, the overwhelming need to stick their you-know-whats into you-know-where never stops. Is it any wonder then why so many marriages result in the husband finding a younger woman with whom to have sex?
Most animals have rutting periods where they are "in heat." Only during that time are their sex drives active. But not only is the human need for sex a constant, non-stop issue, the push to have sex is such a burning, biological imperative that people have given up everything they were, are, or ever would have been just for a couple of seconds of orgasm. Look how many people have been destroyed by sex scandals.
So .. instead of God doing the smart thing and making us far less horny all the time, he created us extra horny with an inescapable desire for sex whilst simultaneously sending us literally HUNDREDS of rules regarding when to have sex, who with, in what way, for how long, the rituals that go with it -- and this means hundreds more rules regarding marriage. NONE of which would even be necessary if God had simply designed our sex drive with a bit more intelligence and A LOT more foresight. Didn't God know that we have the potential to literally overpopulate ourselves into extinction?
Well, I could give example after example after example of why it is inconceivable to me that such a flawed body as our own is the pinnacle of God's creative ability. Some parts of our design are so stupid it ends up being comical -- like farts, for instance. God couldn't figure out a way for humans to release excess gas in a much quieter and less stenchy way than big rips that can rattle the rafters and stink up a room so badly that everyone runs for the door?
If we are God's masterwork, then God must lack imagination. We are far more similar to animals than we are different. It doesn't take any sort of genius to see that. We don't even act all that different from them. We just complicate things like mating with complex rules, expectations, and entitlements that animals don't have. We even sound like chimps when we laugh, scream, and make other noises beyond actual language. This delusion that we're special, that we are somehow "above" the natural order of things is dangerous -- and one reason why some Christians are in a deep state of denial over climate change. We'll see just how "special" we are when we're killing each other by the millions over the last few drops of clean, drinkable water ... if the climate change scenario does its worst.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Like the fact that everyone has a distinct personality and identity. There will never be another human being exactly like you.
This is only because our lives are so incredibly complex compared to that of an animal that we have far more variables impacting our formative years. We are who we are largely due to our life experiences, not because we were "created" with some sort of computer program that forces us to behave a certain way or that our personalities are engraved in stone even as infants. Even so, genetics play the part of your magic. All of what you're talking about is determined by the genes you have -- not by some god individually infusing each human with a unique personality. Are we Cabbage Patch dolls come to life? I can just see the reaction of some kid getting me for Christmas. "Mom! *whaaah!* You bought the atheist doll! It's going to eat my puppy!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
We all have various skills and talents unlike other animal species.
And animals have various skills and talents that we don't have. From their perspective, THEY are the special ones, not humans.
I can just hear a couple of cheetahs: "Ever see a human run 70 miles per hour? Heh. Slow pokes. They would be meat on the table out here in the savannah."
Or one eagle talking to another: "Stupid humans can't even fly. In fact, that's a good thing because they can barely see to the ends of their noses. Most of them have to wear those strange glass things on their ugly mugs or they can't even read a book right in front of their faces! Ahahahaha!"
Or some whales: "Humans think they're clever by strapping big oxygen tanks onto their backs. And yet, even with those clumsy, unwieldy things, we whales -- with lungs just like theirs -- can stay underwater for hours and hours. Can they? Nope!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Abiogenesis essentially dilutes our humanity to being really no different than tomatoes grown in a field.
So what if humans aren't any different than tomatoes grown in a field? Who cares? Seriouisly ... you act as though someone insulted your mamma so now you have to prove your superb lineage and pedigree.
After all, who are we comparing ourselves with? Animals? Do you think THEY care? At least some of them offer unconditional love and loyalty ... unlike most humans who will abandon you at the first sign of an opportunity to enrich or better themselves.
You speak as though we have to prove humanity worthy of existence to some sinister extraterrestrial entity and if we're not created by a god, then we will be exterminated.
What I find so puzzling about your type of Christian is that you seem to always be unsatisfied with your existence and thus need constant vindication from an external source. Everything has to be handed to you so that you don't have to do any of the work, any of the thinking. Your morality is handed to you. Your purpose in life is handed to you. Your inherent value as a human is handed to you. The rules that govern your life are handed to you. It's no wonder, then, why it is fundamentalists and evangelicals are so attracted to dictators and authoritarians -- because those types of governments hand everything to you, as well, and you don't have to worry about having to make choices and living with the rewards and consequences of those choices.
Freedom is actually a burden -- which is why it is often difficult to change a long-standing regime into a liberal democracy. The people who have lived under tyranny and dictatorship for decades, such as the Iraqi people, simply have no idea what to do with themselves. Like prisoners released after a very long sentence, all they want to do is go back to prison because everything is a known quantity -- there are few unknowns in prison and almost no choices. Like those prisoners, your brand of Christian seem unable or unwilling to make any decisions for yourself, to find inherent value in things because YOU decide its valuable.
Now, I like myself even if you don't. And despite the fact that my body has betrayed me. I don't need to feel superior to animals or tomatoes because I don't see life as one huge competition to see who is special and who isn't. And I certainly don't need some outside source, god or otherwise, TELLING me what is important to me, what is valuable to me, what moral compass I should have ... and I certainly do not need a cosmic boss telling me what my reason for existing is, which usually amounts to eternal servitude to an all-powerful God. That doesn't even make sense if you bother thinking about it.
Like it or not, I am not person of historical significance. Nor will I ever be. When I die, no one will remember me any more than someone will remember a random deer that died out in the woods somewhere. In that, I feel a deeper bond with animals than I do certain people, especially those who feel they just *have* to be special. Because simply being YOU isn't enough, for some reason.
Perhaps your life is unfulfilling? You and all of those who think like you? I really don't know. But it's obvious to me that your God has not made you a complete person. You're still searching desperately for something ... something to give your existence a higher purpose than going through the banal rituals and trivial routines we all perform every day. Hey, I get it!
But when you come to grips with the reality that we are just very smart mammals scurrying around on a small, insignificant rock orbiting an unremarkable star, you begin to understand that you play the cards you have ... pulling cards out of your sleeve is cheating. And that's what religion attempts to do. It cheats reality by convincing people they are something oh so very special -- and not through their own merits and actions but merely because a genocidal, murderous god magicked humans into existence and then killed most of them.
Plus, this kind of thinking creates an inescapable paradox: Are we truly special, the pinnacle of God's creation? Or are we pond scum, even less deserving of life than any animal -- since it wasn't a deer or raccoon or squirrel that ate the forbidden fruit against God's personal command. So which is it? Because most of the time all I hear is human-bashing from Christians and how we actually deserve to burn forever in fire merely for having had been born a human. And yet, we're special? Uhm, I think I'd rather NOT be special if being special means we've been singled out for eternal torment. Ya know?
In any event, these two paradigms together really don't mix. We can't be both. Oh I know you'll give it the ol' college try and rationalize how we're special pond scum! But I doubt it will sway me, I'm afraid.
So think on THAT, Jeff. If we're so gosh darn special, how come God murdered humans every chance he received? God had no respect for human life, and he saw no value in it, either. Remember that he did once try to wipe us ALL out -- at least according to your beliefs. How special can we be, to essentially make us extinct? What good are all of our unique personalities, talents, and skills then when we're all floating face down in a torrent of water?
No, Jeff, as I said: We're just intelligent mammals bustling about on this rock -- mating, sleeping, eating and excreting, trying to maximize our comfort, avoiding pain ... and dying. Just like every animal alive.
Normstad, so long as you all realize Trout has this thing dialed in... More a platform for a Knife Fight than a Gabfest. I see the Buddhists are largely staying out of this...
Unfortunately, very few Religion & Spirituality topics are considered benign (or simply for the sake of cultural diversity). I actually can't think of any, but surely they do exist.
I would rather revel in my beliefs, than find out that maybe, just maybe, they are not true.
In other words, are you afraid of the truth?
Wham! Nailed it.
This is what I call the verbal equivalent of the Robin Hood shot ... whereby your arrow splits his arrow clean in half, dead center in the bullseye.
Yes, denying reality has become a virtual artform for fundamentalists, evangelicals, many Baptists, and a large swathe of Southern Christians regardless of which denomination they are members of.
It's been awhile since I said this, so I'll reiterate here as a sidebar to your post:
I'm sure you've noticed something peculiar about the Christian propensity for science-denial.
What makes their claims of creationism rather weak -- aside from the complete and total lack of demonstrable and empirical evidence -- is their motive.
There are plenty of hypotheses and "theories" floating around the scientific community which are far more controversial and not nearly as solid as, say, evolution and the Big Bang. So why not attack String Theory or M-Theory? Multiple universes? Other dimensions? Hawking radiation?
But instead they consistently attack evolution -- one of the most solid and evidential theories science has ever produced.
Except we all know the real answer to this question.
The ONLY reason why they attack evolution and the Big Bang is because those two theories represent the absolute last gasp of Biblical literalism and even threatens to unravel the entire paradigm of Christian belief.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with the science itself; most detractors of evolution and the BB don't even understand it while many others couldn't even identify common terms used in science. They just refuse to believe either theory no matter what the science says ... or reality, for that matter.
Now, it would be different if there actually *were* major faults in the science itself, but there isn't. Certainly there is still tweaking to be done, certainly there are things we do not yet know. But the overall framework for evolution and the BB are proven fact. And there's just no getting around that.
If evolution were true, however, that would mean there was no Eden, no pile of dirt and a rib, no God breathing into Adam the "breath of life" using what's known as a golem spell (a popular aspect of Jewish mysticism at the time). In fact, the entire reason why the commandment about making graven images exists at all is because the authors were afraid that any statues, paintings, sculptures, or whatever might be brought to life using the same "golem" magic as was used on Adam!
And if there was no Eden and no breath of life, if there was no Adam, there would be no Eve. If there is no Eve, there is no Fall of Man and no original sin. Without original sin, there would be no reason for Jesus to have died on the cross ... and the entirety of the Christian religion unravels like a frayed tapestry ... or like a mummy in some Scooby-Doo episode.
This is why I have said many times to not even bother engaging in debates about evolution. They aren't interested in actually learning about it ... and not a single piece of evidence you can provide for them will be believed. Nope. We are talking about a truly fatal case of confirmation bias.
*puts fingers in ears* Uh uh! No way! God created the heavens and the earth. God created Adam from a pile of dirt. The Bible says so! Evolution is a hoax, it is false, it is of the devil! No, I don't care about what the truth is because I wanna believe what I wanna believe!"
This is what I call the verbal equivalent of the Robin Hood shot ... whereby your arrow splits his arrow clean in half, dead center in the bullseye.
Yes, denying reality has become a virtual artform for fundamentalists, evangelicals, many Baptists, and a large swathe of Southern Christians regardless of which denomination they are members of.
It's been awhile since I said this, so I'll reiterate here as a sidebar to your post:
I'm sure you've noticed something peculiar about the Christian propensity for science-denial.
What makes their claims of creationism rather weak -- aside from the complete and total lack of demonstrable and empirical evidence -- is their motive.
There are plenty of hypotheses and "theories" floating around the scientific community which are far more controversial and not nearly as solid as, say, evolution and the Big Bang. So why not attack String Theory or M-Theory? Multiple universes? Other dimensions? Hawking radiation?
But instead they consistently attack evolution -- one of the most solid and evidential theories science has ever produced.
Except we all know the real answer to this question.
The ONLY reason why they attack evolution and the Big Bang is because those two theories represent the absolute last gasp of Biblical literalism and even threatens to unravel the entire paradigm of Christian belief.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with the science itself; most detractors of evolution and the BB don't even understand it while many others couldn't even identify common terms used in science. They just refuse to believe either theory no matter what the science says ... or reality, for that matter.
Now, it would be different if there actually *were* major faults in the science itself, but there isn't. Certainly there is still tweaking to be done, certainly there are things we do not yet know. But the overall framework for evolution and the BB are proven fact. And there's just no getting around that.
If evolution were true, however, that would mean there was no Eden, no pile of dirt and a rib, no God breathing into Adam the "breath of life" using what's known as a golem spell (a popular aspect of Jewish mysticism at the time). In fact, the entire reason why the commandment about making graven images exists at all is because the authors were afraid that any statues, paintings, sculptures, or whatever might be brought to life using the same "golem" magic as was used on Adam!
And if there was no Eden and no breath of life, if there was no Adam, there would be no Eve. If there is no Eve, there is no Fall of Man and no original sin. Without original sin, there would be no reason for Jesus to have died on the cross ... and the entirety of the Christian religion unravels like a frayed tapestry ... or like a mummy in some Scooby-Doo episode.
This is why I have said many times to not even bother engaging in debates about evolution. They aren't interested in actually learning about it ... and not a single piece of evidence you can provide for them will be believed. Nope. We are talking about a truly fatal case of confirmation bias.
*puts fingers in ears* Uh uh! No way! God created the heavens and the earth. God created Adam from a pile of dirt. The Bible says so! Evolution is a hoax, it is false, it is of the devil! No, I don't care about what the truth is because I wanna believe what I wanna believe!"
The worst part is that they confuse or try and create an equivalency between creationism, or the start of life, with evolution, which does not postulate at all about how life began, but strictly deals with speciation. Evolution has been accepted as a theory by science, which is about as close a you can ever get to being called a fact. The theory of gravity can be tested many times right?
It would be much more honest to discuss creationism and abiogenesis, although the science on abiogenesis is quickly evolving in the lab to the point that self replicating RNA has been produced.
I can't speak for the other atheists here, but I would object to spending tax money on a monument or memorial to Charles Darwin.
I would have no objection to the park (I might still laugh at it) if it had been built totally with private funds.
Well, that's a question. I wouldn't, any more than I's object to public money for a statue to Einstein. I might balk at a statue to Uncle Sam.Maybe not Mickey mouse.There's a bit of prejudice there I gotta admit. But the thing that is bothering me is that it is presented as true - even intended to make it true, not a monument to a mythical icon, and it's cost so much. And the methods seemed so dodgy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Why would I? You literally just stated what your view is, and I don't believe for a second that spending hours debating that will be beneficial to anyone in any way.
It certainly won't benefit you, which is why you give up so easily. Which is why you misdirect into debates on meat eating and morality or what you said or meant or what 'fingers' means. Anything to wriggle out of being put on the spot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Whatever floats your boat, man.
Still trying to score points without actually playing.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-26-2018 at 10:08 PM..
Fundies are terrified of it - if it invalidates any aspect of their favourite collection of old pamphlets.
Which it does. A lot.
Hence the invention of their Fundashields Of Determined Ignorance. If they deflect the truth with the sheer force of their deliberate obtuseness, it can't "hurt" them. So, they are diligent - with gusts up to maniacally obsessive - in avoiding it whenever possible. And cowering under their FODIs when they cannot.
What's really funny/ironic is, they're using some of the latest science to display their ignorance to the world.
Without the latest science, they couldn't have built it.
The worst part is that they confuse or try and create an equivalency between creationism, or the start of life, with evolution, which does not postulate at all about how life began, but strictly deals with speciation. Evolution has been accepted as a theory by science, which is about as close a you can ever get to being called a fact. The theory of gravity can be tested many times right?
It would be much more honest to discuss creationism and Abiogenesis, although the science on abiogenesis is quickly evolving in the lab to the point that self replicating RNA has been produced.
The mods are being quite generous in allowing this digression away from actually considering Ham's propaganda park. But attacking evolution theory gives them (so they think) a comeback (even if off -topic). And Shirina and Normstad indeed nailed it. Genesis literalism is at stake unless they can debunk evolution.
Which they think they can do because they trust the arguments they see on Creationists websites, and they do not know or care that they are based on ignorance or downright lies. They don't care because faith in the literal truth of Genesis is the real evidence, not science which is "Always getting things wrong". Odd that they rely on what it produces every day of their lives - and so does every gadget at the Creation museum and Ark exhibit.
I'd love to know - though I don't suppose Jeff and his Ilk can even remember - whether they plumped for Genesis -literalism because Jesus supposedly endorsed it (1) or they believed Genesis and just lifted Jesus' endorsement from an apologetics website because it seemed to support it.
Old Eusebius used the argument and I'll give Jeff the answer I gave Eusebius and others, though Jeff apparently never read, or remembered, any of them.
Supposing for sake of argument, the gospel account was reliable. Then Jesus was saying that Noah existed in the old days, implying that the Flood was true. He referenced Eden as support for one man, one woman, and no hanky -panky, apart from a flurry of prolonged incest to stop the species going extinct. But I'd argue that either he didn't know the facts or he was lying to his audience in terms they'd understand.
Didn't he know that demons do not cause illness but bugs do? Or was he using terms they'd understand? Didn't he know that he'd help the Syrio -phoenecian woman in the end, or who touched him or that he couldn't be let off crucifixion? Or was it all dome to send messages to the readers of the account?
Either way, Jesus mentioning Noah and Eden is No verification of it. None whatsoever, even if the account is true. Which it isn't.
I may say on the way, as i light up a disgusting early morning pipe before going back to bed (I said i was a lazy sod) that I meet the creationism -debators half -way, by translating evolution as the whole process of natural development from a postulated origin of matter through the Big Bang, star formation, Novae and biochemicals and heavy elements, earth life by Abiogenesis and the evolutionary process of life, instinct and indeed consciousness, empathy and social structure which is there in animals as much as a phallus, anus and mouth. Whatever one prefers to do with them.
I don't get held up with a distinction between evolution in the broad sense vs. the limited Biological sense.
(1) since that was just Christians writing what he said, it means nothing to me.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-26-2018 at 11:06 PM..
You really didn't answer WHY it's illegal or immoral. But thanks for trying to play.
Honestly...this is the same old thing every time. I pose a question...you guys are unable to answer it...you just say something to the effect of "well.....because! It's a stupid question anyway!!!!!!" Then, a few people toss in a few insults, answer a question that was never asked, and declare victory.
Oh sure, it might go on for another 15 pages while I try to rephrase the question in the hopes that maybe by asking it differently someone would grasp the concept....but the atheist crowd here is simply incapable of answering the most very basic question of WHY some things are moral, or immoral, other than that's their opinion.
Every time?
Last edited by Harry Diogenes; 09-27-2018 at 04:16 AM..
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