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The substitutive role of Jesus as Christ Triumphant (our "designated hitter") NOT our sacrificial victim is the message Christ unambiguously demonstrated. Jesus did what we could NOT thereby saving us ALL from any need to be perfect. Thanks to Jesus, our imperfect love is sufficient to connect us to God through Christ's perfect love. That is why God is NOT counting our sins (imperfect love) against us.
I don't see where you think jimmiej would disagree with you or take something new from your comment.
"redemptive" doesn't mean "sacrificial."
And Jesus DID have a huge sacrificial role, even if it was ultimately called triumphant by changing the invisible/undetectable things/rules somehow.
Because despite the ignorant immature primitive beliefs of our ancestors, God does NOT hate, does NOT punish, and NEVER wanted any blood sacrifices of innocents for ANY reason, period. God IS agape love NOT hate. WE will punish ourselves through regret and remorse (weeping and gnashing of teeth) once we truly understand God's love and our failures (whenever that happens).
This makes very little sense because I would not have regret or remorse for doing as designed and capable of. Even the worse human beings would be able to forgive themselves immediately if they understand their limitations as humans. Plus, if at the end it's good news, why spoil it by dwelling on the past, why would a good/agape God allow such a Problem of Evil (technically, why would it ever).
This morning I attended a more evangelical style church. Something I had not done in a while. In my mind, during the last few weeks, I have been convincing myself that they were really not so bad. But I rediscovered that they are not for me. The opening songs and hymns were great. All about Jesus and his love. But the sermon really let me down. Nothing at all about love. Nothing about how to treat people, nor any encouragement to do good works. Nothing biblical in the message, though a long passage was read, and just very depressing. Just the redemptive role of Jesus that everyone better get in line with, or else. Nothing that I ever found in my Bible readings.
I also would like to offer an apology to the non-religious people I have offended during this time, while in this frame of mind in these recent weeks. They already knew what I had forgotten. Please forgive me. I hope I don't fall back into that thinking ever again.
Such things as religion can be used for good or evil, to inspire great acts or enslave with fear, to teach a better way or to enforce ignorance.
Here’s what Jesus said about those you call “ancient ignorants”.
Luke 24
44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Woops, I guess his closest 12 followers didn't see/remember that interpretation so they were surprised and Jesus had to do a double take. Imperfect/Fallible. Only fallibility begets fallibility.
Here’s what Jesus said about those you call “ancient ignorants”.
Luke 24
44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
I said "immature and primitive" ignorance.
Do you really want to play dueling scripture, Jimmie?
John 5:37-40 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
37 `And the Father who sent me Himself hath testified concerning me; ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor His appearance have ye seen;
38 and His word ye have not remaining in you, because whom He sent, Him ye do not believe.
39 `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;
40 and ye do not will to come unto Me, that ye may have life;
Romans 7:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
1 Corinthians 2:13-16 (King James Version)
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15But He that is spiritual (Christ) judgeth all things, yet He Himself is judged of no man.
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
Notice, it says we "have the mind of Christ" NOT the Bible, Jimmie
John 16:7-14 King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
John 14:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Note it is the Comforter (Holy Spirit) that is sent NOT the Bible, Jimmie.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 New International Version (NIV)
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 thatGod was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Note through Christ, God reconciled with us and our sins no longer matter because Christ's perfect agape love (Grace) achieved the connection to God (perfect resonance) for us all. Now all that is necessary is for us to achieve some harmonic resonance with Christ's agape love to connect with God by loving God and each other every day and repenting when we don't.
That’s laughable! The doctor’s theology is NOT based on scripture, but rather emotion.
"For the Spirit gives Life, But the Letter Kills [the spirit / the life?]"
"Serve in Newness of Spirit, not Oldness of Letter"
~ Paul
They think the Spirit influences them through their hearts/emotions (which is actually to say through their brain's limbic system) to correctly understand which letters are supposed to be interpreted which way or seen through as a fallible human creation/version.
It's also funny because THESE ARE LETTERS that they are using to give authority over to their emotions instead of the Bibliolatry which the letters also clearly favor and champion forward blatantly and shamelessly, like any blatant and shameless human religion. Then again, the very letters say to be blatant and shameless and to also not be blatant nor shameful. They say to not judge, and also to judge. That the religion is simple AND that the religion is complicated. That if you are right you will be persecuted/oppressed and that if you are right you will be highly esteemed and in power.
You holding your religious scriptures hostage to your interpretation and in high esteem doesn't mean that you (or your group) aren't merely paying lip-service to your own prideful wishes for authority/power.
The "redemptive" work of Christ is very Biblical (New Testament from Paul, and I'd think definitely the Gospel of John). But the Messiah in the Old Testament had many prophecies about what they would do, and one of them wasn't "will ask for your worship of his 'son-aspect/humanized-aspect' or send your Jewish ass to hell for denying Jesus while not denying Yahweh."
I am not sure if the Messiah was supposed to "redeem" the Jewish people at that point other than making non-Jews look up to them and passing the cup of suffering&servitude to the enemies of the Jews.
First you say “your interpretation”, then you proceed to show I’m correct (paragraph 2). Thanks, I guess.
First you say “your interpretation”, then you proceed to show I’m correct (paragraph 2). Thanks, I guess.
You seeing it this way merely points something out about your frame of mind at the moment (which I believe is too black/white and very self-confirmation biased atm). The two "politics of heaven" liberals probably made your "politics of heaven" conservativism become defensive and resort to common human last/simple resorts.
First I was talking in general because you made a general claim about your level of authority in the matter (i.e. believed correct interpretation of a chosen constitution), and then I proceeded to agree with a point on which I indeed agreed with you: that the New Testament is definitely about redemption/wrath (yet I believe it was to placate to a pagan palate/taste, in order to more easily replace various free, chicken-sacrificing, paganisms) as much as love/triumph is not more so.
It's not always so black and white as some might want you to think for whatever nefarious/fallible/well-meaning reasons or purposes.
Do you really want to play dueling scripture, Jimmie?
John 5:37-40 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
37 `And the Father who sent me Himself hath testified concerning me; ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor His appearance have ye seen;
38 and His word ye have not remaining in you, because whom He sent, Him ye do not believe.
39 `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;
40 and ye do not will to come unto Me, that ye may have life;
Romans 7:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
1 Corinthians 2:13-16 (King James Version)
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15But He that is spiritual (Christ) judgeth all things, yet He Himself is judged of no man.
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
Notice, it says we "have the mind of Christ" NOT the Bible, Jimmie
John 16:7-14 King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
John 14:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Note it is the Comforter (Holy Spirit) that is sent NOT the Bible, Jimmie.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 New International Version (NIV)
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 thatGod was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Note through Christ, God reconciled with us and our sins no longer matter because Christ's perfect agape love (Grace) achieved the connection to God (perfect resonance) for us all. Now all that is necessary is for us to achieve some harmonic resonance with Christ's agape love to connect with God by loving God and each other every day and repenting when we don't.
Yes, the scriptures testify of Jesus and His redemptive work. You should believe them.
The mind of Christ and the scriptures come from the same source, the Father. The Spirit moved the writers to pen the words.
You know the scriptures, including the words of Christ and the Apostles point to the blood of Christ washing away our sins. Nothing you quoted refutes that claim.
This certainly has turned into a scripture-measuring contest.
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