The confusion about faith (reject, experiences, atheist, agnostic)
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If you are referring to the definition of agnostic again, it’s not the same as an atheist. Two different words, and there is most definitely a distinction.
Yes. I know there is a difference old fruit but it still comes down to either - not believing in the possibility that gods exist (atheist) and believing in the possibility that gods exist (agnostic or theist). Perhaps I'm not explaining well enough.
Yes. I know there is a difference old fruit but it still comes down to either - not believing in the possibility that gods exist (atheist) and believing in the possibility that gods exist (agnostic or theist). Perhaps I'm not explaining well enough.
I've never heard "atheist" defined as "not believing in the possibility that gods exist". Surely, we all acknowledge it's possible that a god exists (cue the old Spaghetti Monster response!) But atheists simply don't believe in a god, whereas theists do.
That is not accurate. You may not have explicitly said anything about it but your acceptance of a "No God until proven" default IMPLICITLY inserts "No God" into our ignorance of Reality without ANY valid reason to do so.
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Originally Posted by mensaguy
Nope. That's not what I said. You're moving the goalposts. You asked atheists for evidence to support their non-belief. I simply reminded you that you can't prove a negative.
I am moving no goal posts. That you do not recognize that the two statements in bold are the same thing is probably why you continue to miss the point. The belief is "we do not believe there is a God." That belief has nothing to support it but they would pretend that it should be the default. That is where my post above comes in to point out the IMPLICIT claim that such default mandates.
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Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy
An agnostic simply believes it is unknowable(the definition alone is not based on doubt - as that would suggest there is something to believe). An atheist does not believe in God. So the concept of a ‘strong’ atheist vs. a ‘regular’ atheist is superfluous (to me at least). Someone is an atheist - or they aren’t, it’s a finite definition.
Amen.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
Exactly! You either don't believe or you do (which includes the belief that there might be. Again. No middle ground.
Quite so! That makes your belief unsupported (and unsupportable) as pointed out above.
I am moving no goal posts. That you do not recognize that the two statements in bold are the same thing is probably why you continue to miss the point. The belief is "we do not believe there is a God." That belief has nothing to support it but they would pretend that it should be the default. That is where my post above comes in to point out the IMPLICIT claim that such default mandates.
Amen.
Quite so! That makes your belief unsupported (and unsupportable) as pointed out above.
Good grief! How many times do I have to repeat myself. Saying that "we do not believe there is a God" is a negative statement. Of course there is nothing to support it. It is a negative statement. Support would be evidence for the existence of a God. Now. What is it in this world that is a negative position that you believe in that has evidence for it? None. What negative position can you prove? None.
It's incredibly simple. Religion and God are beliefs held on faith, not evidence. Christians, Muslims, and other religious people have faith on their beliefs, not evidence. Atheists do not have that faith. It really is that simple.
I've never heard "atheist" defined as "not believing in the possibility that gods exist".
Which makes me think that you are not atheist...as you don't appear to understand WHAT atheism is. No atheist believes that gods might possibly exist. That's why they are atheists, they have no belief in gods. Perhaps you are getting confused with 'believing' and 'knowing'?
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Surely, we all acknowledge it's possible that a god exists...
No, not if you are atheist (no belief in gods) What we might all acknowledge is that there is no way of knowing - but that isn't the same as believing that gods might exist
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But atheists simply don't believe in a god...
So if one does not accept/believe that gods exist, (atheist), why would that same person accept that gods might exist? It is a contradiction. It's a difference between belief and knowledge.
Do you believe in fairies? No.
Do you believe fairies might exist? No. I have no belief in the existence of fairies.
Do you know that they don't exist? No. I don't know that but I have no belief that they do or even might exist.
Are you understanding? If we don't believe/accept that something exists, how can we believe/accept that it might exist? The bottom line is - we don't believe! One either has no belief that gods exist or even might exist, in which case you are atheist or, one believes that god do or might exist which puts you in the theist camp.
We would all fall into the agnostic camp in that it is not possible to know one way or the other but that is a knowledge possession not a belief position. One can claim that one doesn't know but when it comes to belief, you either believe in gods or you don't That's why I keep saying that 'there a'int no middle ground brother'. You either believe or you don't.
Which makes me think that you are not atheist...as you don't appear to understand WHAT atheists believe.
Lol, please find me one dictionary that defines atheism as the belief that there's no possibility of a god existing. Go ahead.
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No atheist believes that gods might possibly exist.
Sounds like you're trying to turn atheism into a religion, to me. There's absolutely nothing beyond an absence of belief in a god (or at strictest the belief that there is no god, which still doesn't mean the person can't admit they could be wrong) that atheists necessarily have in common. Next you'll be telling me I have to dress a certain way
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What we might all acknowledge is that there is no way of knowing - but that isn't the same as believing that gods might exist
If you admit to not knowing for sure, then yes, that's the same as admitting gods might exist. Are you confusing "might" with "probably do" or something?
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Do you believe in fairies? No.
Do you believe fairies might exist? No.
I believe that anything which I haven't verified doesn't exist, could. In fact that's just a truism.
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The bottom line is - we don't believe!
Exactly. And that's accomplished whether you can admit that gods might exist or not.
I'm curious as to what you would call a theist who admits there might not be a god now. Are they also automatically an atheist?
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We would all fall into the agnostic camp in that it is not possible to know one way or the other but that is a knowledge possession not a belief position.
Agnosticism requires that you say you don't know, not just that you don't know. Anyone who would say they do know that there is/isn't a god, isn't an agnostic.
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It's why I keep saying that there is no middle ground. You either believe or you don't.
Obviously. But you're tacking on more than that, and it's not necessary.
Lol, please find me one dictionary that defines atheism as the belief that there's no possibility of a god existing. Go ahead.
Sounds like you're trying to turn atheism into a religion, to me. There's absolutely nothing beyond an absence of belief in a god (or at strictest the belief that there is no god, which still doesn't mean the person can't admit they could be wrong) that atheists necessarily have in common. Next you'll be telling me I have to dress a certain way
If you admit to not knowing for sure, then yes, that's the same as admitting gods might exist. Are you confusing "might" with "probably do" or something?
I believe that anything which I haven't verified doesn't exist, could. In fact that's just a truism.
Exactly. And that's accomplished whether you can admit that gods might exist or not.
I'm curious as to what you would call a theist who admits there might not be a god now. Are they also automatically an atheist?
Agnosticism requires that you say you don't know, not just that you don't know. Anyone who would say they do know that there is/isn't a god, isn't an agnostic.
Obviously. But you're tacking on more than that, and it's not necessary.
I think there is a middle ground vic. Their description of what it is wrong. maybe its something its not just what people think it is. for example, the sun rising. it doesn't rise, but its definitely there. people can die and rise from the dead. it happens all the time. It also happens metaphorically all the time. diesing, rising, and ascending literally did not happen.
theoretically its true, we can't have both answers. But, based on how much we do know, its not nothing and its not omni god. We just have to figure out what it is.
The atheists in the forum have been spending virtually all their efforts in refuting your black and white definition of atheism because they need to avoid providing proof or evidence of their default assumption of "No God."
There are no ‘percentages’ in the definition of an atheist. One is an atheist - or one is not. It’s like a woman saying she is ‘20%’ pregnant - lol.
How sure are you there are no gods?
I am very certain, although I accept a god of some description may exist. An agnostic would be around 50% certain.
It is more like a driver saying he is traveling at 20% of the auto's possible maximum speed. Or 80%.
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