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I've said it before - it is utterly amazing that anyone can buy into the idea of a literal hell - a place where you're simply burnt and resurrected and burnt some more - forever and ever.
This concept is not only primitive - it's juvenile, the kind of thing a "tween" kid might come up with.
Why is there so much detail regarding Hell but hardly any detail regarding Heaven? The answer is obvious:
The Hebrews - the authors of this silly book - needed a place of torment that would frighten everyone. The only thing they could think of is fire because, well, it burns everyone and it hurts like hell - pun intended. In fact, neurologists have stated that being burned is the most intense pain that our nervous system can feel.
What a way to scare the bejesus out of everyone - imagining a place where you're roasted on a fire day after day, year after year, etc. That is something everyone can relate to and so they invented a sophmoric, juvenile Hell that is both one-dimensional and predictable - and certainly not tailor-made to the individual. Because you can't tailor-make a Hell for a lot of Christians because everyone has different fears.
I have often said that a genuine Hell would be ... well, a lot like life on earth. After all, since there is no good evidence for the existence of God, we are, essentially, living with the absence of God just as Hell is often described. But life here is also very painful - yes physically but also psychologically, and each and every person's Hell is unique to themselves. No idiot fire pit that is exactly the same for everyone.
Now, as an atheist, I don't really believe life on earth is actually Hell. But if I believed in Hell, I would honestly think *this* life is Hell and we're already being punished. Everything in the universe fights against what humans want - the Law of Diminishing Returns, the Law of Entropy - we spend almost all of our time engaged in maintainence of our bodies, our relationships, and our physical surroundings. Things that are good for us taste like crap while the things bad for us are absolutely delicious. Things we want to stay warm grow cold - that which we want to stay cold grows warm. And it goes without saying that, all of our lives, we have to put up with fear and pain almost on a daily basis.
And why do we have love and happiness in Hell? Because some of the worst torture is losing that which we care about. Those things give us something to lose. And we always lose them. It's inevitable. Beauty always fades, the power and invincibility of youth turns into the arthritis and rheumatism of old age.
People might say they're happy - but are they? I doubt it. We've grown so used to a flatlined, neutral existence that we often think maintaining the status quo is a good thing - I'm "happy" not because something good happened, but because nothing bad happened. But they're not really happy in the truest sense of the word. They're just - grateful - that some calamity hasn't occurred yet. Because they know one will sooner or later.
Bad things happen to you whether you do anything to cause them or not. Even if you sat in a chair and did not move or interact with the world in any way, bad, lousy, miserable things will happen to you. But good things? Oh no, they don't happen automatically like bad things do. For the good things, you need to work your tail off to *make* good things happen - and even then, you usually fail. And the longer you wait for that good thing to occur, the higher your expectations get - until reality could never meet them and all you end up feeling is disappointment.
I could go on and on and on as to why life on earth resembles the kind of insidious Hell that a real god would create - not the cartoonish Hell of the Bible filled with fire and worms and spiders - things that evoke a primal, primitive fear. Hell would be far and away more sophisticated than simply burning every day.
And what of death? Well, I believe it was the gnostic Christians who said that Hell was not permanent. That was changed much later to a permanent place - because the clergy was afraid some people would be willing to spend some time in Hell so they could be hedonists and sinners while they lived. So they had to make Hell last for eternity to scare those types of people.
At any rate, if the gnostics were right and Hell is temporary, then death is our way of escaping Hell - it is when our sentence is finally over. Thus death might be considered a good thing not because you get to dress in diapers, float on clouds, and play harps - but because you finally get out of jail, so to speak.
Why is there very little detail regarding Heaven? Because the Hebrew authors found it nigh impossible to create a detailed Paradise that *everyone* would see as a paradise. For instance, I would prefer a Heaven of white sand beaches, swaying palms, a starry sky, and balmy breezes - but one of my best friends would rather be in a Heaven that included a cabin in the mountains with lots of snow and cold temperatures. Personally I think she's crazy because I hate winter with an unbridled passion - but she loves it. So how could the two of us co-exist in a Heaven requiring two diametrically opposite versions?
As a result, the Biblical authors decided to keep Heaven even more simplified than Hell. Oh, it's a place where all the things we hate on earth don't exist - pain, suffering, death, old age, disease, crime, famine, and the like. But no one has any real idea what Heaven looks like, what we can expect when we get there, or what we're going to DO for the next ... infinite number of years.
This is why, to me at least, it is so painfully obvious that both places were simply made-up by the Biblical authors. There is nothing at all "real" about either one.
As you said, you can't make yourself believe. I don't doubt that, as this is a Biblical doctrine. In John 6:44, Jesus conveys that you cannot come to Him unless the Father wills it. (And if the Father wills it, then His call is not something one is able to resist.)
And tortures those he does not will to eternal torture! What kind of a sick monster are you worshiping?
Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90
I am putting forward what I certainly think are many cogent reasons to believe in the Gospel.
Which have been refuted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90
(And in this thread, I haven't even addressed other issues such as the problems with evolution and uniformitarianism, and the failure of atheist cosmologies.)
How would you do that, by ignoring any real science and linking to some dishonest web site?
Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90
and in conjunction with the scientific and historical reasons to have faith--then there's no room for doubt!
Reasons you find on a web site that lies to people.
And tortures those he does not will to eternal torture! What kind of a sick monster are you worshiping?
Which have been refuted.
How would you do that, by ignoring any real science and linking to some dishonest web site?
actually they are getting rid of eternal torture. too slowly, to be sure. It would be better stated that people will be held accountable for their actions these days.
yeah, no harry. It hasn't been refuted that we can't learn from the gospels. it is only refuted that taking them literally is nonsense.
What is the point of evangelising if our lives are predestined? What is the point on knocking on my door if your god has already predestined me to be atheist or if he has predestined me to become Christian later in my life - and what happens to the 'free-will' argument if our lives are predestined. If our lives are predestined then we do not have the free-will to choose whether we believe or not do we? You haven't really thought about this have you?
The reasons for evangelism are manifold even with a proper Biblical view of predestination.
I know in my own life that God has used other people to communicate valuable truths to me. Some of the things I've learned had primed me to receive His inward call. So there's both an outward call of sorts as well as an inward call.
Next, we can and should see doing God's work as our highest call in life. It becomes a much more fulfilling task than mere living just for our own self-gratification, which is the default mode of living in society. Nevertheless, living for your own self-gratification seldom, if ever, produces real happiness. To the extent it does, it's temporary. Living for your own self-gratification is all the more unattainable if you've been born again.
Furthermore, our comfort is in the fact that we are not our own. We've given our lives to Christ, and we're dead to our former selves! We're not our own. Instead, we are the possessions of the One who purchased us with His Holy Blood.
Evangelism can also make us appreciate the gift of faith that we've received. No amount of pleading with other people to accept Jesus will make them do it if they're not called to do so. So we will really appreciate that we so clearly see the truth that others simply cannot see!
Moderator cut: Evolution
Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 03-16-2019 at 08:09 AM..
Reason: Discussion of evolution not permitted on R&S. Read the rules.
Correct. I know what Shirina mwant (I think) but Hell is a Christian invention. Judaism does (I believe) still offer being saved - at some future earthly resurrection. Which was of course the one Paul was talking about and is thus the ones the disciples were talking about.
Those who are not 'saved' do not share in this resurrection, because they do obey God's laws about never having prawns in a stir - fry. This bothered Paul because, as a Roman citizen, he wanted his fellow Romans to share in the Promise. He could never persuade them (as he couldn't persuade me) to adopt all those rules and restrictions, so he used Jesus as a way of getting rid of the Law. Anyone who realises this (and it is explicit in "Romans" - they don't need to take my word for it) understands Christianity. Anyone who does no, does not understand Christianity. That's almost all of them.
But this did not have a hell, though it had a heaven (for God and his favoured, not for everyone). It was Christians who interpreted the rather symbolic 'Gehenna' as an actual place of post - death burning for those who didn't make the cut. They also Interpreted (because they had felt the need to turn Jesus' spirit resurrection to the heaven he had come from into a solid body -resurrection) resurrection as an immediate thing after death. This is not in the Gospels. They speak with the idea of the future coming and resurrection all the time. The Immediate resurrection after death is a later idea added onto it. Thus we have the conflicting idea of Judgement after death and a heaven or hell right away as well as a future time resurrection, which is always Tomorrow, and has been for 2,000 years.
This heaven and hell has been a relatively new invention by Christianity, and Judaism has not traditionally taught this belief (even the Last Days resurrection was rather later and we see it set out in Daniel as a rather new idea in Judaism) and doesn't teach it now.
Doing God's will is supposed to be enough without the need for bribes and threats, which the Christians will indignantly deny he or she needs to try to be a good person. Which is it is true, makes them strive to be better for the same reason as any atheist.
The reasons for evangelism are manifold even with a proper Biblical view of predestination.
I know in my own life that God has used other people to communicate valuable truths to me. Some of the things I've learned had primed me to receive His inward call. So there's both an outward call of sorts as well as an inward call.
Next, we can and should see doing God's work as our highest call in life. It becomes a much more fulfilling task than mere living just for our own self-gratification, which is the default mode of living in society. Nevertheless, living for your own self-gratification seldom, if ever, produces real happiness. To the extent it does, it's temporary. Living for your own self-gratification is all the more unattainable if you've been born again.
Furthermore, our comfort is in the fact that we are not our own. We've given our lives to Christ, and we're dead to our former selves! We're not our own. Instead, we are the possessions of the One who purchased us with His Holy Blood.
Evangelism can also make us appreciate the gift of faith that we've received. No amount of pleading with other people to accept Jesus will make them do it if they're not called to do so. So we will really appreciate that we so clearly see the truth that others simply cannot see!
So the omnimax creator of the universe and everything in it needs mere mortals to spread the word.
Quote:
No amount of pleading with other people to accept Jesus will make them do it if they're not called to do so.
Then as I said, you are completely wasting your time...and ours.
actually they are getting rid of eternal torture. too slowly, to be sure. It would be better stated that people will be held accountable for their actions these days.
yeah, no harry. It hasn't been refuted that we can't learn from the gospels. it is only refuted that taking them literally is nonsense.
Correction: there's no they. Some people believe hell exists, some people do not and some people admit they do not know or care one way or another. In order to control the discussions, some posters will actively discourage and belittle those with any questions or discussions about hell. So, it's not that hell is being got rid of, it's just banned from the discussion because it does not align with certain posters paradigms.
Correction: there's no they. Some people believe hell exists, some people do not and some people admit they do not know or care one way or another. In order to control the discussions, some posters will actively discourage and belittle those with any questions or discussions about hell. So, it's not that hell is being got rid of, it's just banned from the discussion because it does not align with certain posters paradigms.
It isn't Hell that's banned from discussion - science and politics is. If you mean in theist and atheist circles, there is surely no Ban. Some theists love to talk about it and atheists rather like it too, as it makes God look so bad.
Arach (and you) were both right - the belief in hellthreat Is (or so it looks to me) gradually being dropped as discussion goes on. Some have dropped it altogether, some cling to it and other have modified it (say -'Separation') So there are various views on it, but it is (I think) gradually being phased out.
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not for everyone). It was Christians who interpreted the rather symbolic 'Gehenna' as an actual place of post - death burning for those who didn't make the cut. They also Interpreted (because they had felt the need to turn Jesus' spirit resurrection to the heaven he had come from into a solid body -resurrection) resurrection as an immediate thing after death. This is not in the Gospels. They speak with the idea of the future coming and resurrection all the time. The Immediate resurrection after death is a later idea added onto it. Thus we have the conflicting idea of Judgement after death and a heaven or hell right away as well as a future time resurrection, which is always Tomorrow, and has been for 2,000 years.
