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Do you think that the Afterlife has a literal Hell? By that I mean the Hell as taught by Islamics and Christians, that is, an actual place where people are burning in fire, tortured for all Eternity.
I believe the wicked should be punished. But why for*all eternity? That would be the height of Cruelty. Should they not get a chance to redeem themselves? According to those Bible-teachings, what disturbs me is that the torture will be eternal.
No, and doesn't the bible say it's down below, if so it would be inside of the earth, there is no other below. I do think there is a chance that your soul may survive death, but I don't think it would go to Hell because I don't think there is such a thing. I'm not worried in the least. I've never done anything hell worthy anyway.
I’m screaming at nothing and no one because I’m feeling pain and I misdirecting my emotions because it’s easy to yell at an invisible adversary.
No matter what I think, I apologize for making such pointed statements that help no one.
I’m over-tired, in pain and in pain.
I hope all have a good day.
No problem - whatever you were yelling at, and I fervently hope that you will feel a lot better and return to us.
P.s just saw you posts. I would save your apologies. I have seen MUCH worse that that. I have written much worse than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
You should read some real historians.
Not Wallace, the ex policeman who works from the premise the gospels are eyewitness accounts, to come to the conclusion they are eyewitness accounts, when we know they are not eyewitness accounts?
If he uses the same methods as a Christian as he did a sa policeman, he has probably sent more innocent men to death row than guilty ones.
Which has no bearing on reality whatsoever.
It's odd how these Christians will puke over atheism because it make humans no more than animals and Christianity makes humans more dignified than that, and hect thing we hear we are all miserable sinners and mere slaves.
I will say as a coda -an in fairness - that these fellows are doubtless sincere, but they are either making serious errors in approach, methodology or lack of even -handed treatment of the evidence.
Just as an example, I have pointed out so many times that it cannot be denied that Luke's assassination attempt in Nazareth, the Transfiguration, Sinking Simon, Jesus before Antipas and Doubting Thomas (and the spear -thrust, for good measure) plus Jesus' appearance to the women are demonstrably false. Ans some have tried to argue but failed.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-15-2019 at 02:58 PM..
Ironic, when the members of CARM mention Hell and Satan more than anything else.
Matt Slick himself does nothing to stop them, so is complicit with their hate comments.
Argue with Evangelical theology there, and you will either be Banned or made a Secular Forums Member.
They have a secular forum?? Please tell me it exists only for Matt Slick to spew over whatever they post after they've posted.
Yes I did. That's why I said that you are using the Bible to prove the Bible. It assumes that the gospels are true and then uses that as 'evidence'.
LOL! What...you mean like Lee Strobel was an 'atheist investigative journalist' who broke every rule of investigative journalism to reach the conclusion that he wanted in the same way as your 'detective' breaks every rule of investigation in his video?
They were. The first epistle of Clement of Rome, which is reasonably dated to 95CE., makes no mention of any of the Gospels . This is a strange omission had the Gospels been circulating at that time.
The Gospel of Luke borrows heavily from material in Joseph's later works, implying that the Gospel of Luke was not composed (much less published) until after 100CE., since Josephus’ later works weren’t published before 95CE.
None of the Gospels are mentioned in the letters of Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, which can be dated from 110CE.
Archeologically, the earliest dated portion of any gospel is a tiny fragment consisting of a few words from what could be the Gospel of John, and this dates to 125CE
The earliest allusion to any of the Gospels is from about 130CE. in the works of Bishop Papias, who refers to a collection of Jesus’ sayings/oracles in a Hebrew book whose author is said to be the disciple Matthew. This book of sayings may refer to the lost document Q, but it obviously does not refer to the Gospel of Matthew, as we know it. Papias also mentions recollections of the disciple Peter, recorded by his secretary Mark. Though neither of these references is to what we now know as the Gospels of Mark and of Matthew, they begin to suggest that some things resembling these Gospels were in circulation after 130CE.
The first mention of the Gospels, as we know them, comes around 140CE. in the work of Aristides of Athens who refers to “the holy Gospel writingâ€. Shortly thereafter, Marcion broke with the traditional church over the issue of Jesus’ divinity, and set up his own church, including in its writings a stripped down version of the Gospel of Luke. In 150CE. Justin Martyr composed the first of his two Apologies, in which he specifically refers to the writings of Luke, Matthew, and Mark as “memoirs†but clearly not in the form of the Gospels as we know them. About 10 years later, Justin’s student, Tatian, brought together the four Gospels and combined them into one harmonised book which he called the Diatessaron, written in Tatian’s native language of Syric. And by 180 A.D. Irenaeus wrote in his principal work, Against Heresies, that: “The Gospels could not possibly be either more or less in number than they are. Since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds…Now the Gospels, in which Christ is enthroned, are like these…â€
So you see. The real evidence, the verifiable evidence, the evidence that has been examined by scholars in the field of history (as opposed to ex-policemen who make up things in order to support what they want to be true) points very strongly towards the gospels being, at best, a late 1st century publication or even second century.
You can't even show verifiable evidence that your Jesus the man-god even existed much less what he 'predicted'.
Very good. I am in Awe. I particularly like the point (that I have tentatively suggested to Pneuma before) that 'sayings of Jesus' could be something like the gospel of Thomas (and was largely the sermon -on mount material common to Matthew and Luke) but was what i call "Q" but many use the term to mean 'proto = Matthew', which I consider 'proto Mark' (or the 'synoptic original') and was the document that was seen in Caesarea.
I have said before on this forum that I couldn't believe the truth of Christianity even if I wanted to. Once you know what you know, you can't unlearn it. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. I would have to ignore all of the logical fallacies, the truckloads of debunked arguments, the complete lack of evidence, the numerous Biblical contradictions, the huge historical gaps where there is no mention of Yahweh at all, that Yahweh is someone else's god since I'm not Hebrew - and a whole lot more. I'd have to dump all of that and pretend that Christianity actually made sense on its face.
And I can't do that.
Which makes me doubt the sincerety of anyone's atheistic beliefs if they suddenly convert to Christianity. It makes me think that they were an atheist in name only - completely oblivious to the reasons for having that belief. Therefore, they were horribly susceptible to the kind of propaganda the Bible pushes.
Here's what I KNOW you and others will never believe, as indeed you've just stated: I could have said all the same things. In fact, I most certainly have, over the years, in one formulation or another, stated all the same things. I certainly could have and would have persisted in atheism, as I had for 14 years. It would have been inconceivable that I'd be saying what I'm saying now a mere three months ago. But then Jesus found me when I was NOT looking for Him!
I received the inward call of God. He has demonstrated Himself to me beyond any shadow of a doubt in my mind, and has physically interceded in my own life and left me with a lasting faith of not only His existence but the eternal security that I am given. And so now I have faith. You probably think I'm "lying for Jesus," as you put it. Indeed, I have had unbelievers tell me they don't believe my story. That's quite amusing to me because I know from personal experience what's true in my own life!
As you said, you can't make yourself believe. I don't doubt that, as this is a Biblical doctrine. In John 6:44, Jesus conveys that you cannot come to Him unless the Father wills it. (And if the Father wills it, then His call is not something one is able to resist.) And 1 Corinthians 1:21 speaks to this:
For since in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know Him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
I will never convince every atheist to have faith, because faith is not given by me. It is given by God. Many Christians balk at predestination in general; however, the doctrine of predestination is not only Biblical but indispensable to understanding Scripture. The only hope I can have is to play some role in growing God's kingdom even if only among just a few who hear what I'm saying. Indeed, the purpose of evangelism is not so much that God needs us to do His work, but that we need to do some of that work ourselves as an act of worship.
I am putting forward what I certainly think are many cogent reasons to believe in the Gospel. (And in this thread, I haven't even addressed other issues such as the problems with evolution and uniformitarianism, and the failure of atheist cosmologies.) No single reason in isolation is a smoking gun. But when I look at my own experiences, as well as the MANY testimonies of other Christians--and in conjunction with the scientific and historical reasons to have faith--then there's no room for doubt!
Unfortunately, you seem to think this debate hinges on what it will take to convince you. You seem to think that I must have failed if I do not convince you. However, if not you, then perhaps there is someone else reading this message who needs to hear what I'm saying. For every argument, there will be a counterargument. Ultimately, you will believe what you want to believe.
No, and doesn't the bible say it's down below, if so it would be inside of the earth, there is no other below. I do think there is a chance that your soul may survive death, but I don't think it would go to Hell because I don't think there is such a thing. I'm not worried in the least. I've never done anything hell worthy anyway.
Well, the obvious explanation is that the bible was written in Heaven by God, so "down below" is earth, so we are currently living in Hell, and you just stay here forever if you don't get accepted to Heaven.
(And no, I don't actually believe that. Just demonstrating how easy it is, since that ... people making up random explanations to make things fit... is how we got to this place.)
Well, the obvious explanation is that the bible was written in Heaven by God, so "down below" is earth, so we are currently living in Hell, and you just stay here forever if you don't get accepted to Heaven.
(And no, I don't actually believe that. Just demonstrating how easy it is, since that ... people making up random explanations to make things fit... is how we got to this place.)
This is hell, it is what Jesus is teaching in everything he says, THIS IS THE OUTER COURT/HELL.
Christians don't understand this because theh don't know Temple design or the comings and goings of the temple. The temple is specifically made to mirror the kingdom of Heaven and the Temple proper is two different sections while the court is without the temple, and the cout is the outer court of Gentiles that is known as the outer court of darkness/HELL.
There is still salvation in the court, and being that hell lasts for an eternity, it simply means that you die, and then you get to try again no matter how long your refinement lasts, you are a tool, and God is not going to throw you away, he made you to serve as a tool, and so you are refined in a fire over and over as metal.
The outer court of Gentiles is known as the outer court of darkness for very good reasons.
Inside the temple proper, inside the holy place is the menorah which gives such an extreme light that at Sukkot they say,'' Night has become day.''
At Sukkot, the light streaming from the Temple is so great that it lights up every courtyard in Jerusalem which gave Sukkot the name,'' Festival of lights.''
The outer court of darkness is lit up by the sun, and when comparing the light of God to the light of the court, the court is deemed,'' The court of darkness/HELL.
People in the court weep and gnash their teeth because they learn that there was so much more, they learn that they were in a race but they didn't know they were in a race.
This is hell, it is what Jesus is teaching in everything he says, THIS IS THE OUTER COURT/HELL.
Christians don't understand this because theh don't know Temple design or the comings and goings of the temple. The temple is specifically made to mirror the kingdom of Heaven and the Temple proper is two different sections while the court is without the temple, and the cout is the outer court of Gentiles that is known as the outer court of darkness/HELL.
There is still salvation in the court, and being that hell lasts for an eternity, it simply means that you die, and then you get to try again no matter how long your refinement lasts, you are a tool, and God is not going to throw you away, he made you to serve as a tool, and so you are refined in a fire over and over as metal.
The outer court of darkness is for those Who where the garment of deceit. The leviathan hide or hoary mantle. The occult love to boast of such and sow tares.
As for those who where such a garment. The inspectors bind them hand and foot.
Do you recall ole friend how to inspect what is a kosher fish?
Look closer at the ship you mentioned. And further even at the the false gold in its mouth.
Every Literal truth reveals Yeshua in Torah.
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You probably think I'm "lying for Jesus," as you put it. Indeed, I have had unbelievers tell me they don't believe my story. That's quite amusing to me because I know from personal experience what's true in my own life! 
