Does the Afterlife have a literal Hell? (perspective, Earth, scripture)
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On paper, ignoring the various questions and problems and just relying on Faith seems the easy way out. But the problems start when one begins to ask questions. Then, following the evidence rather than trying to lead it where you want it to go become far less stressful.
You are responsible. Salvation is offered to everyone. Your choice.
And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. Luke 11:9-10
How do you get John 8:44 is talking about anyone other than satan?
Jesus never walked the earth. Huh. That's news to everyone in the NT, the Gospels, Acts, the 500 people who saw even after His resurrection.
His sacrifice was on a Cross. Here. Why would He make a sacrifice in heaven?
The tabernacle not made by human hands is His body.
Saying they're primitive and anonymous shows you know nothing about facts.
So what did these people know about science and the natural world, hmm?
I'll be quite interested to know about their "advanced" education system - without any real schools - and their "advanced" technology.
The people who wrote the Bible did not even have a civilization. You can see Egyptian ruins, Roman Ruins, Greek ruins - you can see ancient ruins in India and the Indus valley, you can see ancient ruins in Thailand, and you even have ancient ruins in England and Scotland - like Skara Brae.
Funny - I haven't seen many Hebrew ruins. Have you?
At any rate, by the standards of knowledge today, they were a primitive, superstitious tribe of Bedouins. Yahweh - which actually means "the Musterer of Armies," was made-up out of whole cloth to unite the tribe and give it a fake "history."
The Hebrews were primitive even by the standards of their own day. As I said, the ancient Hebrews did not even have their own civilization - and they never did. At least not until their bloodthirsty God "commanded" them to go on the warpath committing genocide against every city that happened to be in their way. (Of course it wasn't really God commanding anyone since he doesn't exist - rather it was the Hebrew leaders themselves like Moses and Joshua that went on a genocidal rampage.)
And your God, Yahweh, was SO primitive that he couldn't defeat an army that had iron chariots. LOL!
Judges 1:19 - "The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron."
Yep. That's how primitive they were - that even the LORD couldn't win a fight against those dratted iron chariots. He could deliver the plagues to Egypt, part the Red Sea, feed the Hebrews with manna from Heaven - for that matter, he could speak entire universes into existence, right?
But those pesky iron chariots were just too much. Do you want to know why the iron chariots were too much?
The Hebrews didn't win every fight they waged. Sometimes they got their arses kicked. Yet, it goes without saying that, before every battle, they prayed to Yahweh and assumed that he was both on their side *and* that he would grant them victory.
So what happens when they lost? Well, gee, the only reason they could think of is that their God, who was definitely on their side, just didn't have the power to defeat charioteers who rode chariots with iron fittings. Now, does that sound like a *real* God to you? A God who could create the universe yet couldn't defeat a relatively small army of iron chariots? That God could not defeat an army equipped with nothing more than Bronze Age technology - spears, for the most part, a few swords, leather or boiled leather armor, and horses? Really?
Even forgetting about their war record of one atrocity after another, who on earth were the Hebrews?
The Hebrews just magically appeared out of thin air within the Biblical record. One minute God was creating Adam and Eve, Cain was killing Abel - and then 30 generations of who begat whom. Then suddenly, viola! We're in Egypt - with Hebrews!
Where did they come from? Why are they so special? For what reason did Yahweh create the entire universe only to develop a laser focus for one small, obscure tribe living in one of earth's most backwater places?
Have you never asked yourself that question?
Have you never asked yourself why, even if we went with the figurings of Young Earth Creationists, there is literally 4,000 years of history where God, Yahweh, Jesus, Christianity, Judaism, Hebrews, Chosen People, etc. etc. were not mentioned *anywhere*? I mean, in those 4,000 years kings ruled, wars were fought, civilizations rose and fell - and history was made and recorded.
And in all of that, for some bizarre reason, the Bible skipped four millennia of history when God did absolutely nothing. NOTHING. All of the great heros of Genesis and Exodus disappeared completely. For instance, what of Adam? Was his whole purpose for creation to get Eve pregnant to give birth to the world's first murderer?
Because after that, Adam fades completely from, not just the general historical record, but the Biblical historical record. As one of only TWO human beings who were created directly by Yahweh, one would have thought he would have been a rather weighty figure in history considering he lived for centuries. But he wasn't made a king. He wasn't made a holy man. The guy didn't even have a lousy donkey - and then he just disappeared as if he weren't at all important.
In fact, haven't you ever thought about why the world kept a'turning and, as I said, history was made and recorded for 4,000 years after humanity was expelled from the garden - and yet it took that long, 4,000 years, before the Jewish religion was even founded? What was everyone DOING for 4,000 years?
See, this is where the saying, "The devil is in the details" came from. You're not supposed to look at details like this, not supposed to ask those pregnant questions that should be in the minds of every believer. Because if you look too closely, think too hard, and ask too many questions - you'll find all the nasty little ch!nks in religion's armor. You'll discover why it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
If you study the myths as history rather than as religious dogma - wow. Do your eyes ever open. If you're open to that and you let them. Most believers, though, they'd rather tape their eyes shut and turn out the lights than to admit that their precious religion is full of more holes than the Titanic and floats about as well.
You are responsible. Salvation is offered to everyone. Your choice.
No. It's not *my* choice.
I can't choose what to believe. Either I'm convinced - or I'm not. I can't pick whether I'm convinced.
Did you choose what foods you like and dislike? Did you choose the type of music you prefer? Did you choose your interests, your passions? Did you choose with whom to fall in love?
Some of it may seem like a choice. For instance, when I was growing up, I primarily listened to the same music as my mother. That was until I heard my first Ozzy Osbourne album - and that was it. I never listened to my mother's music again. Did I choose to listen to Ozzy? Sure. But ... did I choose the reason *why* I chose to listen to Ozzy? No. I listened because I liked his music far and away more than my mother's music, but my like for Ozzy's music wasn't a choice. I just ... liked it.
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Originally Posted by illini1959
And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. Luke 11:9-10
If that passage were at all true, I would be a Christian right now.
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Originally Posted by illini1959
Jesus never walked the earth. Huh. That's news to everyone in the NT, the Gospels, Acts, the 500 people who saw even after His resurrection.
There's no proof that he walked the earth - whether as a man or as the Son of God. That is one of the biggest raging debates in theology right now. And has been. And will be for a loooong time. The only evidence we have of the historicity of Jesus is the Bible.
Which is why everything you cited came from, well, the Bible. The New Testament, the Gospels, Acts, and the 500 so-called witnesses - all taken from the Bible. None of those 500 witnesses went home and wrote of their own account of seeing Jesus. None of those witnesses have names. None of those witnesses have any historicity themselves. They could be just as made-up as Jesus himself might have been. Anyone can "claim" there were 500, 1,000, a million witnesses. But without independent corraboration from other contemporary historical documents - it's just a story.
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Originally Posted by illini1959
Maybe you do know a bit about cults....
Well, I do ... and in the New Testament, Jesus spoke like a true cult leader.
For instance:
Matthew 19:21 - Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
This is a common tactic used by cult leaders. Convince the members of the cult to get rid of all your possessions so you have nothing to go back to, should you have second thoughts about joining.
Like the story of Cortez who burned all of his ships upon reaching the New World, it meant there was no going back no matter how hard it got. In the same way, Jesus was trying to get potential new members to his cult to sell everything - like burning your ships - so one could not go back to their old life even if they want to.
It also shifts the member's dependency onto the cult itself. The member will find that she needs the cult for food, shelter, protection, clothing - everything one needed to survive in those days could only be obtained through the cult. As such, better to stay a member where there is food and protection than to leave the cult and be homeless, penniless, and without any possessions.
Luke 14:26 - "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."
Yet another common tactic of cult leaders. The idea here is to convince the members to cut off all ties with everyone outside of the cult. One of the hallmarks of a cult is its insular behavior - a break from the rest of the world. One way is to keep its members isolated.
Of course, this is a rather "club to the head" or "bull in a china shop" way to go about it since it lacks subtelty or finesse - modern cult leaders are much better at this - but the message is clear. You are to cut your ties with your former life and focus all your attention on Jesus.
This also furthers the first verse - not only do you have no possessions now, you also have no family. Which means there is literally nothing for you now except the cult. There is nothing to go back to.
I could continue - there is more cult behavior in Jesus's words if you need even more evidence, but that should do for now.
I have said again and again that Christianity in its early days was essentially a messianic doomsday cult with the same promise a lot of cults give about a dead leader - yeah, he'll return someday.
That's not to say that it was an evil cult - everyone today sees cults as evil because, well, most of them are. But they don't have to be, and I don't think Jesus expected everyone to form a suicide pact and drink kool-aid if things don't go their way. If Jesus existed at all and wasn't merely used as a divine figurehead to get the cult formed, I do believe he was - well, more or less, a good person. Except he was the one who introduced Hell and eternal torment.
Okay, one more.
John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Here, Jesus, the leader, asserts his authority and dominance. Why should anyone recognize Jesus' leadership? Well, because you can't get to Heaven except through him. So if you want your eternal reward, you better do as he says or else ... Or else? Or else what?
Matthew 13:50-51 - "... and throw them into the blazing furnace of fire where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Have you understood all these things?" Jesus asked. "Yes," they replied.
This is where the cult leader lays out the punishment if you walk away from the cult. This is why belief was so important - and why begging Jesus for forgiveness and believing in his divinity was far more important than doing good works and living a moral life.
It's because it was necessary to keep the membership in line. You could be a wraunchy person, but as long as you stayed in the cult and didn't ... stray, like an errant sheep (it's no wonder why sheep and flocks were so often used as an analogy to the Christian cult's membership), then the cult could still try to change your ways. Remember that a herd of sheep implies both obedience and conformity - flocks move together, there is no independence and no thought.
I mean, seriously - what does it take? I'm using the Bible itself to prove the point. No doubt you'll still shrug your shoulders and deny it all.
I have a lifetime of God working and moving in my life and the lives of people I know.
...and billions of others would say exactly the same about their gods
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My dad was a lifelong agnostic. His personality was complex, everyone walked on eggshells around him. He had a hard life in many ways.
After praying for him for 40+ years, he accepted Christ in his early 70s.
The change in him was immediate and lasting. The most amazing change I've ever seen in a person, and I've seen a lot of changed people.
I know someone who was a Christian for 60 years and then ' saw the light ' and became atheist and now feels as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I've never known him so happy. What's your point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by illini1959
And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. Luke 11:9-10
Odd then that Church leader around the world have been praying for peace and an end to suffering for a hundred years - with zero success.
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Jesus never walked the earth. Huh. That's news to everyone in the NT, the Gospels, Acts, the 500 people who saw even after His resurrection.
The Bible is true because the Bible says it's true. LOL!
I know someone who was a Christian for 60 years and then ' saw the light ' and became atheist and now feels as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I've never known him so happy. What's your point
Yeah, it's funny you would say that.
I wrote this somewhere else, but it was buried in a long post so I thought I would reiterate it here on its own.
There was a poll/study done where 400 former Christians (now atheists) were asked if they regretted becoming an atheist. And despite often taking some sort of hit to their lives for becoming a non-believer - some lost friends, some lost family, some even suffered a divorce, a few lost their jobs - only one ... ONE ... atheist said they regretted it.
So many former Christians say that once they ditched the religion, they felt free - as if they've been released from slavery. Like your friend, they say that their happiness increased and, as you said, a huge weight was lifted off their shoulders.
People trapped in religions who think they are living this beautious life - well - I guess it really depends on the personality of the believer.
I have often said about things here in America, there is a cognitive dissonance problem almost as large as religion itself.
Usually the same people who talk the most about freedom and liberty and individualism are the same exact people who cheer on the fascist corporations and worship an authoritarian tyrant god. It makes me think that those who are the most devout believers are people who *want* to be told what to do. They don't want freedom because freedom really can be a heavy burden to bear if you're not careful. You have to make your own choices - and be responsible for their outcomes. You can't blame it on God or assume that the outcome of our choice was God's will. Nor can you blame it on the devil - there is no "the devil made me do it" excuses when you're an atheist.
Some people don't want the responsibility of living life - and so they hand everything over to God. "Let go, let God," as they say. It's just another form of running away.
So they say one thing, do just the opposite. They want to appear as if freedom and having choices is their opinion, too, when in reality, they want everyone in the country to obey their rules and conform to their way of life. Because it's a lot easier to conform when *everyone* is conforming. Thus choices are bad, freedom is bad - because having them means bearing the responsibility for the choices you make and how you use your freedom.
It's no wonder then why so many atheists say that they've never felt real freedom until they chucked their Bible out the window.
...and billions of others would say exactly the same about their gods
Your criticism only undercuts the myriad beliefs ABOUT God, NOT the existence of God, period. Whatever those people believe ABOUT God does NOT invalidate their experiences of God regardless of who or what they believe is God.
I wrote this somewhere else, but it was buried in a long post so I thought I would reiterate it here on its own.
There was a poll/study done where 400 former Christians (now atheists) were asked if they regretted becoming an atheist. And despite often taking some sort of hit to their lives for becoming a non-believer - some lost friends, some lost family, some even suffered a divorce, a few lost their jobs - only one ... ONE ... atheist said they regretted it.
So many former Christians say that once they ditched the religion, they felt free - as if they've been released from slavery. Like your friend, they say that their happiness increased and, as you said, a huge weight was lifted off their shoulders.
Yes. The guy was a real fundie too, even to the point of not allowing himself to watch TV or listen to radio on a Sunday. Went to chapel three times on Sunday. Happily now he's cured and normal.
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