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The sentence in question is: "Whatever those people believe ABOUT God does NOT invalidate their experiences of God regardless of who or what they believe is God."
So if we took ten people form each church, synagogue, temple, etc. here in Colorado Springs, and ask them to write one paragraph defining god, we'd get dozens of different answers. Yet you want us to believe is a one god. If the "god folks" can't even agree on what god is, why should atheists accept that nebulous god?
Your criticism only undercuts the myriad beliefs ABOUT God, NOT the existence of God, period. Whatever those people believe ABOUT God does NOT invalidate their experiences of God regardless of who or what they believe is God.
I think I got what you meant, old mate - different Beliefs about "God" does not invalidate the concept of a single "God" that is not necessarily connected with any one religion or personal god - concept.
The sentence in question is: "Whatever those people believe ABOUT God does NOT invalidate their experiences of God regardless of who or what they believe is God."
So if we took ten people from each church, synagogue, temple, etc. here in Colorado Springs, and ask them to write one paragraph defining god, we'd get dozens of different answers. Yet you want us to believe is a one god. If the "god folks" can't even agree on what god is, why should atheists accept that nebulous god?
Because the existence of God is NOT dependent upon what people believe ABOUT God. The validity of those beliefs is a separate issue.
So what did these people know about science and the natural world, hmm?
I'll be quite interested to know about their "advanced" education system - without any real schools - and their "advanced" technology.
The people who wrote the Bible did not even have a civilization. You can see Egyptian ruins, Roman Ruins, Greek ruins - you can see ancient ruins in India and the Indus valley, you can see ancient ruins in Thailand, and you even have ancient ruins in England and Scotland - like Skara Brae.
Funny - I haven't seen many Hebrew ruins. Have you?
At any rate, by the standards of knowledge today, they were a primitive, superstitious tribe of Bedouins. Yahweh - which actually means "the Musterer of Armies," was made-up out of whole cloth to unite the tribe and give it a fake "history."
The Hebrews were primitive even by the standards of their own day. As I said, the ancient Hebrews did not even have their own civilization - and they never did. At least not until their bloodthirsty God "commanded" them to go on the warpath committing genocide against every city that happened to be in their way. (Of course it wasn't really God commanding anyone since he doesn't exist - rather it was the Hebrew leaders themselves like Moses and Joshua that went on a genocidal rampage.)
And your God, Yahweh, was SO primitive that he couldn't defeat an army that had iron chariots. LOL!
Judges 1:19 - "The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron."
Yep. That's how primitive they were - that even the LORD couldn't win a fight against those dratted iron chariots. He could deliver the plagues to Egypt, part the Red Sea, feed the Hebrews with manna from Heaven - for that matter, he could speak entire universes into existence, right?
But those pesky iron chariots were just too much. Do you want to know why the iron chariots were too much?
The Hebrews didn't win every fight they waged. Sometimes they got their arses kicked. Yet, it goes without saying that, before every battle, they prayed to Yahweh and assumed that he was both on their side *and* that he would grant them victory.
So what happens when they lost? Well, gee, the only reason they could think of is that their God, who was definitely on their side, just didn't have the power to defeat charioteers who rode chariots with iron fittings. Now, does that sound like a *real* God to you? A God who could create the universe yet couldn't defeat a relatively small army of iron chariots? That God could not defeat an army equipped with nothing more than Bronze Age technology - spears, for the most part, a few swords, leather or boiled leather armor, and horses? Really?
Even forgetting about their war record of one atrocity after another, who on earth were the Hebrews?
The Hebrews just magically appeared out of thin air within the Biblical record. One minute God was creating Adam and Eve, Cain was killing Abel - and then 30 generations of who begat whom. Then suddenly, viola! We're in Egypt - with Hebrews!
Where did they come from? Why are they so special? For what reason did Yahweh create the entire universe only to develop a laser focus for one small, obscure tribe living in one of earth's most backwater places?
Have you never asked yourself that question?
Have you never asked yourself why, even if we went with the figurings of Young Earth Creationists, there is literally 4,000 years of history where God, Yahweh, Jesus, Christianity, Judaism, Hebrews, Chosen People, etc. etc. were not mentioned *anywhere*? I mean, in those 4,000 years kings ruled, wars were fought, civilizations rose and fell - and history was made and recorded.
And in all of that, for some bizarre reason, the Bible skipped four millennia of history when God did absolutely nothing. NOTHING. All of the great heros of Genesis and Exodus disappeared completely. For instance, what of Adam? Was his whole purpose for creation to get Eve pregnant to give birth to the world's first murderer?
Because after that, Adam fades completely from, not just the general historical record, but the Biblical historical record. As one of only TWO human beings who were created directly by Yahweh, one would have thought he would have been a rather weighty figure in history considering he lived for centuries. But he wasn't made a king. He wasn't made a holy man. The guy didn't even have a lousy donkey - and then he just disappeared as if he weren't at all important.
In fact, haven't you ever thought about why the world kept a'turning and, as I said, history was made and recorded for 4,000 years after humanity was expelled from the garden - and yet it took that long, 4,000 years, before the Jewish religion was even founded? What was everyone DOING for 4,000 years?
See, this is where the saying, "The devil is in the details" came from. You're not supposed to look at details like this, not supposed to ask those pregnant questions that should be in the minds of every believer. Because if you look too closely, think too hard, and ask too many questions - you'll find all the nasty little ch!nks in religion's armor. You'll discover why it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
If you study the myths as history rather than as religious dogma - wow. Do your eyes ever open. If you're open to that and you let them. Most believers, though, they'd rather tape their eyes shut and turn out the lights than to admit that their precious religion is full of more holes than the Titanic and floats about as well.
Luke was a physician.
Paul was a very well educated student of the Law.
The bible was written by people with diverse backgrounds. Kings. Priests. Fishermen. Prophets. A couple of them were the brothers of Jesus.
I don't know where you dug up your definition of YHWH but it comes from Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AMâ€; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ â€
I AM = yod, he, vav, he in Hebrew. YHWH
Judges 1:19 says the men of Judah didn't defeat.... not the Lord. Try reading without all the anger.
Israel are God's chosen people. You'll have to ask Him why.
Adam most definitely doesn't fade away from history or biblical history. Just because he wasn't called to be a king or a priest doesn't mean he didn't have his purpose. I would think being the first person created and populating the world would be enough for most people. Not you though, huh?
The "Jewish religion' was founded in the Garden, so....
Religion might have chinks in it, idk. Scripture doesn't. The word of God holds true but to the unsaved, it makes no sense and is foolishness to them - 'The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.' 1 Corinthians 2:14
Reading the bible is more than just opening it up and reading it like a book, there's a lot to consider. Language, context, traditions of the times.
I can't choose what to believe. Either I'm convinced - or I'm not. I can't pick whether I'm convinced.
Did you choose what foods you like and dislike? Did you choose the type of music you prefer? Did you choose your interests, your passions? Did you choose with whom to fall in love?
Some of it may seem like a choice. For instance, when I was growing up, I primarily listened to the same music as my mother. That was until I heard my first Ozzy Osbourne album - and that was it. I never listened to my mother's music again. Did I choose to listen to Ozzy? Sure. But ... did I choose the reason *why* I chose to listen to Ozzy? No. I listened because I liked his music far and away more than my mother's music, but my like for Ozzy's music wasn't a choice. I just ... liked it.
If that passage were at all true, I would be a Christian right now.
There's no proof that he walked the earth - whether as a man or as the Son of God. That is one of the biggest raging debates in theology right now. And has been. And will be for a loooong time. The only evidence we have of the historicity of Jesus is the Bible.
Which is why everything you cited came from, well, the Bible. The New Testament, the Gospels, Acts, and the 500 so-called witnesses - all taken from the Bible. None of those 500 witnesses went home and wrote of their own account of seeing Jesus. None of those witnesses have names. None of those witnesses have any historicity themselves. They could be just as made-up as Jesus himself might have been. Anyone can "claim" there were 500, 1,000, a million witnesses. But without independent corraboration from other contemporary historical documents - it's just a story.
Well, I do ... and in the New Testament, Jesus spoke like a true cult leader.
For instance:
Matthew 19:21 - Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
This is a common tactic used by cult leaders. Convince the members of the cult to get rid of all your possessions so you have nothing to go back to, should you have second thoughts about joining.
Like the story of Cortez who burned all of his ships upon reaching the New World, it meant there was no going back no matter how hard it got. In the same way, Jesus was trying to get potential new members to his cult to sell everything - like burning your ships - so one could not go back to their old life even if they want to.
It also shifts the member's dependency onto the cult itself. The member will find that she needs the cult for food, shelter, protection, clothing - everything one needed to survive in those days could only be obtained through the cult. As such, better to stay a member where there is food and protection than to leave the cult and be homeless, penniless, and without any possessions.
Luke 14:26 - "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."
Yet another common tactic of cult leaders. The idea here is to convince the members to cut off all ties with everyone outside of the cult. One of the hallmarks of a cult is its insular behavior - a break from the rest of the world. One way is to keep its members isolated.
Of course, this is a rather "club to the head" or "bull in a china shop" way to go about it since it lacks subtelty or finesse - modern cult leaders are much better at this - but the message is clear. You are to cut your ties with your former life and focus all your attention on Jesus.
This also furthers the first verse - not only do you have no possessions now, you also have no family. Which means there is literally nothing for you now except the cult. There is nothing to go back to.
I could continue - there is more cult behavior in Jesus's words if you need even more evidence, but that should do for now.
I have said again and again that Christianity in its early days was essentially a messianic doomsday cult with the same promise a lot of cults give about a dead leader - yeah, he'll return someday.
That's not to say that it was an evil cult - everyone today sees cults as evil because, well, most of them are. But they don't have to be, and I don't think Jesus expected everyone to form a suicide pact and drink kool-aid if things don't go their way. If Jesus existed at all and wasn't merely used as a divine figurehead to get the cult formed, I do believe he was - well, more or less, a good person. Except he was the one who introduced Hell and eternal torment.
Okay, one more.
John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Here, Jesus, the leader, asserts his authority and dominance. Why should anyone recognize Jesus' leadership? Well, because you can't get to Heaven except through him. So if you want your eternal reward, you better do as he says or else ... Or else? Or else what?
Matthew 13:50-51 - "... and throw them into the blazing furnace of fire where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Have you understood all these things?" Jesus asked. "Yes," they replied.
This is where the cult leader lays out the punishment if you walk away from the cult. This is why belief was so important - and why begging Jesus for forgiveness and believing in his divinity was far more important than doing good works and living a moral life.
It's because it was necessary to keep the membership in line. You could be a wraunchy person, but as long as you stayed in the cult and didn't ... stray, like an errant sheep (it's no wonder why sheep and flocks were so often used as an analogy to the Christian cult's membership), then the cult could still try to change your ways. Remember that a herd of sheep implies both obedience and conformity - flocks move together, there is no independence and no thought.
I mean, seriously - what does it take? I'm using the Bible itself to prove the point. No doubt you'll still shrug your shoulders and deny it all.
I won't shrug my shoulders and deny it all. Explain, maybe. Not deny.
You might be surprised when I tell you Christianity is a cult in the sense that a cult, in the broadest sense of the word, is simply a religious system with particular rites and customs.
We all have choices in our lives. Sure there are some things we don't choose, but many things we do.
You said if all those things (in the verse posted) were true, you'd be a Christian now. Just because you're not, doesn't mean it doesn't hold true for the great number of people who are. I know nothing about you, where you're from, what kind of life you've had, what your influences were/are. But I DO know, if you've truly sought God, He would be there.
There are plenty of historians who've written about Jesus. Josephus for one.
Everything I cite when talking about God, Jesus, the Bible is - yes - going to come from the Bible. Why wouldn't I?
In Matthew 19:21 Jesus is trying to find out if this person is willing to sell everything because he was very rich, and follow Him? What was in his heart? Money? Jesus? Which one? There are plenty of biblical people who were wealthy but their hearts were right before God. Job for one.
Luke 14 - again you're reading with a very face-value mentality. There's much more to this than what you see on the surface. Of course Jesus doesn't want anyone to 'hate' their family, leave them penniless and cut them off from everyone. That's absurd. He's - again - rightly trying to see where their heart is. Because, yes, He should come first. Matthew tells us to put first the kingdom of God and everything else will follow.
Yes, Jesus is the way the truth and the life. There's one way to heaven. So?
The only point you're proving is that you aren't equipped to discern the word of God, and I don't mean that as an insult although I'm sure you and your fellow God haters will take it that way. It's spiritually discerned.
There are truths there that aren't just read by a cursory glance.
That, again, is your choice. These are all your choices. You can try to find the truth or you can mock it and disregard what's all around you.
I won't shrug my shoulders and deny it all. Explain, maybe. Not deny.
You might be surprised when I tell you Christianity is a cult in the sense that a cult, in the broadest sense of the word, is simply a religious system with particular rites and customs.
We all have choices in our lives. Sure there are some things we don't choose, but many things we do.
You said if all those things (in the verse posted) were true, you'd be a Christian now. Just because you're not, doesn't mean it doesn't hold true for the great number of people who are. I know nothing about you, where you're from, what kind of life you've had, what your influences were/are. But I DO know, if you've truly sought God, He would be there.
There are plenty of historians who've written about Jesus. Josephus for one.
Everything I cite when talking about God, Jesus, the Bible is - yes - going to come from the Bible. Why wouldn't I?
In Matthew 19:21 Jesus is trying to find out if this person is willing to sell everything because he was very rich, and follow Him? What was in his heart? Money? Jesus? Which one? There are plenty of biblical people who were wealthy but their hearts were right before God. Job for one.
Luke 14 - again you're reading with a very face-value mentality. There's much more to this than what you see on the surface. Of course Jesus doesn't want anyone to 'hate' their family, leave them penniless and cut them off from everyone. That's absurd. He's - again - rightly trying to see where their heart is. Because, yes, He should come first. Matthew tells us to put first the kingdom of God and everything else will follow.
Yes, Jesus is the way the truth and the life. There's one way to heaven. So?
The only point you're proving is that you aren't equipped to discern the word of God, and I don't mean that as an insult although I'm sure you and your fellow God haters will take it that way. It's spiritually discerned.
There are truths there that aren't just read by a cursory glance.
That, again, is your choice. These are all your choices. You can try to find the truth or you can mock it and disregard what's all around you.
Jesus was speaking AS THE ALTER OF INCENSE, he is of course, THAT ALTER, just as he is also the alter of burnt offerings burned in the outer court of Gentiles referred to as the outer court of darkness EXACTLY where Gentiles weep and gnash their teeth because they find themselves in the court without the city, they don't burn in hell, they only realize how much more there was.
THE ALTER OF INCENSE.
The alter of incense stands before the throne and NOBODY may enter past the veil UNLESS they go through that alter.
THE ALTER OF INCENSE is full of the prayers of the saints who pray, and when that incense is lit, THE ENTIRE TIME, IT IS SPEAKING TO GOD AS YOU HAVE OFFERED YOUR INCENSE TO THE ALTER, AND IT IS THE ALTER WHO STANDS BEFORE YOU AND THE THRONE.
Now that you have offered your incense TO THE ALTER, what MUST YOU BE DOING?
WHAT ARE YOU DOING WHEN YOUR INCENSE FULL OF PRAYERS IS OFFERED UP SPEAKING TO GOD?
WHAT MUST YOU BE DOING WHILE THE INCENSE IS BURNING.
Explain your surroundings and what is the priest and congregation doing?
Jesus said,'' I AM THE WAY.''
Jesus said,'' I AM THE TRUTH.''
Jesus said,'' I AM THE LIFE.''
THESE ARE 3 VEILS, 3 TYPES OF PEOPLE.
If you have chosen and decided that you are to become a high priest, you choose the narrow way.
WHY IS IT CALLED THE NARROW WAY?
The veil leading into the Holy of Hollies WHERE ONLY HIGH PRIESTS MAY GO, THERE IS A VEIL THAT IS A WALL OF SEPARATION INTO A ROOM WITH NO DOOR.
One may ask himself, '' Why has God designed a Temple where it's Holy of Holies has no door or entrance THAT A HIGH PRIEST HAS TO SQUEEZE AND SQUIRM HIS WAY PAST A 400 POUND VEIL?
I ASKED AGAIN,'' WHY LORD, WHY DOES THE HIGH PRIEST HAVE TO SQUIRM AND SQUEEZE PAST A 400 POUND VEIL PUSHING AGAINST HIM IN SUCH A NARROW WAY, SO NARROW IS THE WAY LORD, WHY WOULD YOU DESIGN SUCH A RADICAL WAY FOR AN ENTRANCE?
WHY LORD, WHY IS THRE A WALL OF SEPARATION?
When one walks past the veil into the great and grand court, he is IN FACT, standing in THE WAY, it is this broad way, and it is the veil into the cout which Jesus is.
When one seeks to enter past the second veil, he has walked up to the two towers which stand before the veil, which stand at the entrance to the door, beofre he is able to enter truth, he must first see himself within the towers where his left hand has become his right, AND ONLY ISRAEL MAY PASS THROUGH THE SECOND VEIL INTO THE HOLY PLACE, THERE ARE NO GENTILES ALLOWED IN THE HOLY PLACE, AND WHY IS IT CALLED,'' THE TRUTH?''
When a citizen of Israel has entered into the Holy place, this is where the bread of life is, and this bread is eaten weekly as the bread of God teaching a person of Israel, and while this Israeli is eating the bread of God, he is doing so by the light of God, he is doing so by the 7 lights of God which are the 7 spirits of God lighting his path as he is eating the bread of God.
Last edited by Hannibal Flavius; 03-20-2019 at 04:33 PM..
Would you care to address the two questions waiting for you in post#193?
Why would I waste my time with those absolutely trifling questions? Perhaps you think I'm lying*, but I was an atheist for the majority of my adult life. That is, from high school until now, at age 28. I am all too familiar with that way of thinking. I have also come to observe that science is often radically turned on its head, and the expectations of scientists are frequently contradicted. I don't remember if it was you, but someone insinuated I was "lying for Jesus."
I would not have faith if God had not given faith to me. I know that it unnerves atheists to hear about ex-atheists finding faith in God. They can't even fathom it, for the most part. But in retrospect, it's hard to believe I was so blind.
It's hard to make people see the truth when they don't want to see it. But the truth is just so clear to me now. My eyes have been opened. I see the overwhelming evidence for God and creation in general, and I consider all the supernatural occurrences that have been reported on so many occasions. God has even done this for me, to ameliorate my faith! When God actually does something in your life, at that point it's QED. There's no going back - only forward.
I really don't wish hell upon anyone. Wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. But it's very real. The only One who can save any of us from it is Jesus. And so I say to you (and not just you, but many others): it's your eternal soul. Your eternal destiny. Don't say I didn't warn you. Surrender yourself to Jesus.
*In case you think I'm lying about being an atheist, I'd have to be one persistent liar! I'll quote just a few posts of mine on this very forum from years past:
4/2/2017:
Quote:
I deconverted and became an atheist at age 14. In a few years, it will have been half my entire life.
Well, to be fair, I am kind of suggesting the same thing, but the other way around. I'm not a fan of Christianity, and I would just have my doubts about whether it would be worthwhile to be in a relationship with one, and how they'd truly feel about me, an atheist interested in heathenry. Plus they'd have to profess a greater love for their god than for me.
I lean more towards only really being willing to date atheists or pagans. No one else.
I'm an atheist, but if it's Christianity that motivates Chick-Fil-A to give their workers Sundays off, then I support them for it. It's great when business leaders believe in something other than money.
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