Does the Afterlife have a literal Hell? (Baptists, believing, confess)
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There is no spiritual realm, because nothing unreal exists.
Everything real occupies space and time, and seeing how the spiritual realm does neither, it doesn't exist.
Maybe it makes you feel better, but you can take a bath in lavender bubble bath and feel better.
You can only define what you know of as "existence" from your singular reality. The spiritual world existed before the physical and the Earth itself and all life therein were modeled after what already was in the kingdom of Heaven.
The only way to scientifically verify NDEs is with a Control Group who has never been contaminated.
The US Supreme Court has already defined death.
The term "flat-line" refers to the heart-monitor. The brain is not hooked up to an EEG, so we have no way of knowing if the brain "flat-lined."
Depending on race, ethnicity, gender, age, body weight, physical condition, body temperature and a host of other factors, the organs --including the brain -- can survive for some time, after the heart stops beating.
So, "flat-line" does not meet the US Supreme Court's definition of death, and those people didn't really die.
The issue is cellular respiration. So long as cells have access to Oxygen, water, nutrients and chemicals they can function. When they can no longer get those things, the cells start dying, en masse.
Organs have different metabolic rates, and the brain has the highest.
Unfortunately, paramedics are sometimes able to revive people who have not been breathing for 10, 15 or 20 minutes, and while the major organs are functioning again, the brain is dead.
The brain stem works, but that part of the brain that makes you who you are is nothing but dead decaying cells and there's no way to fix it.
And, those people would be absolutely correct.
If NDEs were real, then everyone should have the exact same vision.
Right?
Either there's one Heaven for everyone, or it's all nonsense, because there aren't separate Heavens for every one of the hundreds of different sects of christianity, not to mention other religions.
It's pretty obvious.
One, Atheists have been contaminated with concepts of an after-life, and two, the majority of Atheists were of one religion or another before gaining the wisdom that it's all nonsense.
Like I said, there is one and only way to prove NDEs and that's with a Control Group being a representative population sample -- about 2,800 to 3,200 people -- that has never been contaminated.
That means words like god, religion, Heaven, Hell, soul, angels, after-life, bible, scripture, church, synagogue, mosque, etc etc are not part of their vocabulary, because those people have never been contaminated with those concepts and they know absolutely nothing about those concepts.
So, if a person, who has never heard those words and has no knowledge, concept, belief or view of an after-life has an NDE, then you might actually be onto something.
It still wouldn't prove it's real, all it would prove is that some people -- but not all -- when under physiological or emotional distress experience something in the mind.
To be sure, you'd be one step closer, but it still isn't proof.
There is no spiritual realm, because nothing unreal exists.
Everything real occupies space and time, and seeing how the spiritual realm does neither, it doesn't exist.
Maybe it makes you feel better, but you can take a bath in lavender bubble bath and feel better.
No. Why would they all have the same exact vision? As I explained earlier, some people don't make it as far along in their "transition" process to the "Other Side", before they're pulled back into the mundane world. But the stages people experience do show that there's a common trajectory. One exception is the relatively few, who have a hellish experience. Interestingly, those tend to be the people who were real jerks in life. But even some of the people, who went to a hellish place, managed to get out, and move on to the "better place" track. They may have gotten as far as seeing the tunnel, for example, and/or been greeted by deceased relatives. A clear pattern emerges from these stories, which by your criterion of "same experience" would indicate that there's something "real" going on.
All humans have, if not a belief in an afterlife, a cultural reference to it, though. Humans have been making burials with grave goods for thousands of years, so there's no way to find someone, who doesn't have any cultural references to that. However, until these narratives began to be studies, which is relatively recently, no one had heard of a tunnel. Most people didn't have a reference for a ball of light, or an energy phenomenon of a seemingly divine nature. Also, the fact that colors are much brighter "on the Other Side" wouldn't have occurred to most people.
And last, but by no means least among the arguments in favor of the experience being indicative of an other-worldly "real" place or dimension, is the fact that people who were born blind can see during their NDE. How could they see, and report all the sights of their experience, if they've never experienced sight in their lifetime?
However, until these narratives began to be studies, which is relatively recently, no one had heard of a tunnel. ?
The phrase "light at the end of the tunnel", for instance, has been around since the 1800s.
Many references to light(s) of various kinds throughout religious writings
No. Why would they all have the same exact vision?
Because if everyone has a different vision (version), then the most plausible explanation is that they are making it up. Not in the sense of "fibbing"... I have no doubt the experience seemed real to them... but in the sense of hallucinating or imagining, influenced by a lifetime of conscious and subconscious cultural images, and not seeing/experiencing something that really exists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
A clear pattern emerges from these stories, which by your criterion of "same experience" would indicate that there's something "real" going on.
Not necessarily. Humans (and all living beasts) are always on the lookout for patterns, whether we realize it or not. This played a big role in keeping us alive and well fed, so there was a distinct evolutionary advantage to pattern-seeking behaviors. For example: If I go to this watering hole at dusk, I am likely to find other animals to eat. If I jump at that sound, I can avoid being eaten. If I chew this bark, my toothache stops. And so on.
The problem is, sometimes patterns reflect something real, and sometimes they don't: This particular watering hole has rancid water and nobody comes here. That russling of the grass was just the wind blowing and not a tiger. That bark doesn't do anything for my tooth but now my stomach hurts.
Nevertheless, we have maintained a default to recognize patterns and assume they are true, accurate, helpful. We did not a develop a very good mechanism to distinguish real patterns from those that are fake, not helpful, or just random occurrences (what some have called a good "BS detector").
Last edited by HeelaMonster; 05-17-2019 at 10:14 AM..
The phrase "light at the end of the tunnel", for instance, has been around since the 1800s.
Many references to light(s) of various kinds throughout religious writings
Wow, I never thought of that! It never crossed my mind, that that's what it might refer to! I thought it referred to a real (physical/geographic) tunnel!
Because if everyone has a different vision (version), then the most plausible explanation is that they are making it up. Not in the sense of "fibbing"... I have no doubt the experience seemed real to them... but in the sense of hallucinating or imagining, influenced by a lifetime of conscious and subconscious cultural images, and not seeing/experiencing something that really exists..
Everyone doesn't have a completely different vision. People do have visions that fit into some stage of a coherent process or journey, that's known to researchers who have accumulated a broad collection of NDE narratives. There are visions/experiences/themes that do repeat themselves across these studies: floating above one's body, seeing a tunnel, deceased relatives, subject may or may not pass through the tunnel, a light or figure of light beyond the tunnel, a garden experience. There's a sequence of images/events, and everyone's experience falls somewhere along the sequence.
It's like if 10 people go to Yosemite at different times. A couple of them may only see the easiest trail. Some will climb to the top of Half Dome. Others will visit the waterfalls. For some, it may be drizzly weather, for others--bright sunshine. All of them will see redwoods, even if they've never seen nor heard of a redwood before. All will have a trail experience of some sort. Some may or may not see a bear. Stringing together the descriptions, we can conclude, that some people made it deeper into the park than others, some saw fauna, others didn't, but all these elements comprise the phenomenon: "Yosemite". Yosemite is real, even though not everyone will see the same side of the park, or the same features.
A lifetime of cultural images? How would that work, with a 5- or 10- or 15-year-old child? Especially for kids raised with no religious influence at all? How about the blind subjects, who wouldn't know what a tunnel looks like, or what their deceased relatives look like, or what it is to have sight?I think it's something, that's worth looking into, and following.
Everyone doesn't have a completely different vision. People do have visions that fit into some stage of a coherent process or journey, that's known to researchers who have accumulated a broad collection of NDE narratives. There are visions/experiences/themes that do repeat themselves across these studies: floating above one's body, seeing a tunnel, deceased relatives, subject may or may not pass through the tunnel, a light or figure of light beyond the tunnel, a garden experience. There's a sequence of images/events, and everyone's experience falls somewhere along the sequence.
It's like if 10 people go to Yosemite at different times. A couple of them may only see the easiest trail. Some will climb to the top of Half Dome. Others will visit the waterfalls. For some, it may be drizzly weather, for others--bright sunshine. All of them will see redwoods, even if they've never seen nor heard of a redwood before. All will have a trail experience of some sort. Some may or may not see a bear. Stringing together the descriptions, we can conclude, that some people made it deeper into the park than others, some saw fauna, others didn't, but all these elements comprise the phenomenon: "Yosemite". Yosemite is real, even though not everyone will see the same side of the park, or the same features.
A lifetime of cultural images? How would that work, with a 5- or 10- or 15-year-old child? Especially for kids raised with no religious influence at all? How about the blind subjects, who wouldn't know what a tunnel looks like, or what their deceased relatives look like, or what it is to have sight?I think it's something, that's worth looking into, and following.
Subjective experiences are not always reflective of objective reality. Example: dreams.
There’s no reason to believe that my dreams are anything more than things going on inside my brain.
A lifetime of cultural images? How would that work, with a 5- or 10- or 15-year-old child? Especially for kids raised with no religious influence at all? How about the blind subjects, who wouldn't know what a tunnel looks like, or what their deceased relatives look like, or what it is to have sight?I think it's something, that's worth looking into, and following.
I grant you that these reports are intriquing, interesting, worth looking into. I am glad people are conducting research and analyzing narratives. It's just a long (looooonnnggggg) way from our current understanding of NDEs before we get to "yep, there's obviously an afterlife." There are a lot of "worldy" explanations to consider and discard along the way, before we should accept the first-ever proof of supernatural.
I am not overly amazed or confused that blind subjects can describe their experiences with vivid detail. They certainly form mental images of things they read and hear about, even if they don't precisely match those of us who have seen them. More to the point, there is evidence to indicate that blind people "see" visual images when they dream, activate the visual cortex, have visual recall, etc.. there was no difference in the quality or quantity of visual imagery, when compared to sighted subjects. This was true not only for those who lost their sight later in life (where I would have expected that result), but for the congenitally blind who have never seen. It also appears that fetuses (who have obviously never "seen" nor experienced the outside world) may dream in the same way. Learning that the brain effectively "dreams" as it nears death would not be a shocking discovery.
For today, like with so many other things rooted in spiritual/religious thought, I am content to accept that "we just don't know."
Last edited by HeelaMonster; 05-17-2019 at 12:34 PM..
Reason: ETA: See Freak80 immediately above, for shorter version!
Ruth, the brain is always registering and storing things we do not consciously pay attention to.
There's no way of knowing how much one 'knows' as demonstrated by 'reconstruction' by hypnosis or even examination, like from police investigators talking to witnesses to an accident...i.e.....
"Oh yes, the license plate did have the numbers 384". or even something so seemingly inconsequential that there were Geraniums planted beside the road.
The 'blind' might even be able to describe the relative but cannot prove he was never given a description during conversation..."Jane was short and plump but had this lovely black hair and green eyes"
You're reading an article about growing geraniums after seeing but dismissing one just before it about 'snails' because it didn't interest you. But your brain retained that info and you may swear you knew nothing about 'snails' or how it's possible they appeared in your dreams....or your NDE (substitute snail for angel or whatever)
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Wow, I never thought of that! It never crossed my mind, that that's what it might refer to! I thought it referred to a real (physical/geographic) tunnel!
