Atheism As A REJECTION OF--Not Disbelief In--An Evil God (America, quote, believe)
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Thanks for sharing. That is actually very interesting because it demonstrates that we do have control of our minds (although often it feels that we don't). I am actually Ok now. I have posted my self help on QuackerBaker's thread.
Of course we have control of our minds or we would not be able to function. The trick it seems to me is to use what control we have of our minds to help manage what control we don't.
My wife went through a time of experiencing some serious anxiety some years back, but my wife is also one of the sharpest people I know (went from temp working the phones to Senior Commercial Escrow Officer in one of the biggest escrow companies in the country).
Never had trouble driving the freeways before, then suddenly the anxiety attacks made her fearful. One day we needed to pick up our daughter at the airport, and my wife told me she couldn't drive the freeway to the airport for fear of another anxiety attack. Of course I didn't mind driving, but we were both concerned about this anxiety problem. I told her that she could always pull over if she felt one coming on. Seems simple but the thought seemed to do the trick, and my wife drove to the airport that day no problem. I drove us all back.
To this day my wife credits me for helping her overcome her anxiety problem with that simple thought. Fortunately, my wife hasn't experienced any anxiety problems for a good long while now. For whatever any of this story may be worth to anyone...
1. Part of the answer -- a broad part of the answer -- comes down to whether or not you think a person should own another person. Do you think a husband "owns" his wife? Do you think a parent "owns" a child? In terms of children, I think parents have a responsibility to lead their children toward being successful adults. There are things children have to learn -- how to be clean and healthy, how to treat people with fairness and respect, how to be responsible, how to be successful in our society. Some of the more mundane aspects of those things are "givens"...like brushing teeth or keeping a clean room. But the more one gets into freedom of thought issues, the more children need to be guided, and not forced. Some of the most moral people I know behave as they do out of personal choice, and I have little respect for those who do the right thing simply because someone else (including a god) tells them they have to, or else. The degree of requiring a child to do something versus leading a child to do something varies with age.
In 33 years of being an educator, twice I knew of parents who did what I think is the exemplary way to raise a child in terms of religion. These were families that did quite a few things together as families, and in both cases they had a rule -- that usually Sunday, but sometimes Saturday, would be "family day". That one day a week the family would spent pretty much together, if not for the whole day, at least a good part of the day. And roughly once a month the family would go to learn about a religion. They might go to a methodist church one month, a baptist church another month, a catholic church, a Buddhist temple, etc. In some cases they went to not church services, but more cultural related events. For example, they didn't feel comfortable going to a mosque, but they still tried to take the children to places where they could learn a bit about Islam. I'm not sure if they went to synagogues; but the children were introduced to the Jewish religion, as well. The point was, the parents believed in learning and freedom of thought. Over time the kids were free to go their own way in terms of religion.
And how refreshing that is compared to a family I am still in contact with who are in a bit of a turmoil right now. Culturally you would expect the family to be Hindu, but they are catholic. Now the son has decided to marry a Muslim girl, and although the end of the story has not happened, the son seems to be on the verge of converting to becoming a Muslim because the girl's family REQUIRES it, while his own family will, at least thus far, not attend the wedding. And we've all heard of such things many times.
2. Peddling. One thing you have to understand is that most Buddhists do not believe in proselytizing. We believe that there is little value in trying to force a religion onto someone else. That a religion is only truly appreciated if one seeks it out. Through long summers and then living there for a while after retirement, I spent about 3.5 years in Thailand. Unless the weather was bad, every one of those days I would do quite a bit of walking. And I walked into at least 1,300 temples over that period of time. When I did, I always looked like a Western tourist with my camera. I was always acknowledged, but never approached. If I had questions and could find someone who spoke English, my questions were always answered. But not once in all that time did anyone ever say anything approaching "you should...". But I was always welcome. I once walked into a temple where there was some sort of ceremony going on. I didn't want to intrude, so I began to walk out. A woman welcomed me to come back in and join them. I was given a front row seat. Only after the ceremony did I learn that it was a funeral, and the person who had welcomed me in was a family member of the deceased. Another time I was welcomed into a temple where a group of people were making ceremonial objects, and I was invited to help them. In both cases, not a word was said about becoming a Buddhist...unless I asked a question a question related to that. For several years in Colorado I frequently tutored a couple of monks in English. When non-Buddhists would show up at the temple, the monks would welcome them in, show them around, but they would always let the visitors lead the conversation; they would answer any questions asked, but never put out information not asked for. Let's contrast that with the methodist church that I would visit several times a year. When I would go in, a greeter would gently start the peddling since they didn't recognize me. I'd be asked to fill out a visitor card, which of course had room for my address, telephone number, and email. During the service "attendance notebooks" were passed around, again asking for such information. And then I would receive mailings and other communications. That's peddling, and while gentle at that church, I still found it offensive. In the community where I live now in Arizona there are over a dozen churches right here, without even going out of the retirement community. I'm smart enough to find one...if I want. I don't need to be pushed. In fact, the very things that turned me against the christian religion all involved being "pushed".
3. One year when I was a principal a notebook of what I will call "thoughts for the day" was available. The kinds of things that were positive and good endings to the morning announcements. They were typically good moral lessons that could be summarized in about a minute each. A frequent theme was "The Golden Rule". But more importantly, over time the message was that various cultures and religions used "The Golden Rule". The lessons were also about inclusion. Fairness. And so on. And not once did I ever have a parent complain about the message because they were never messages dependent on any particular religion, or religion at all. They were sort of like many of the things that are found in this essay (which was part of a book you may have heard of): https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/bo...466396/excerpt If you choose to read through this, these lessons are as important in any culture or religion...or no religion.
4. Since you asked, do I think you're a bad person? No. Do I think you're misguided? Yes, but even then you're on the better end of things than many. I'll end this missive by telling you about my grandmother. My parents divorced when I was 2, and for a variety of reasons the ultimate agreement was that I would be raised by my mother's mother and stepfather. Gram was a basically good person. But, as I got older, particularly into my early teens, I realized that whether it was toward me, or my grandfather, or my aunt or mother, my grandmother was a nag. And her favorite line was, "I'm only doing this for your own good!" Bull toddy. She was doing it to have power over other people, particularly relatives. She wanted to have her own way. Always. I'm 70 now. Last year, for the first time in many years, I went to a psychic...one I didn't know. I told her nothing. Just let her do the reading. The first thing she said was, "There's a spirit standing behind you. It's a woman. And she's crying and she keeps saying. "I'm sorry. I made a big mistake nagging you. I thought I was doing it for your own good. Please forgive me". The psychic said, "But this woman who raised you is not your mother, is she? She's your grandmother, isn't she?" We talked for a few minutes about the situation and she said, "Can you forgive her?" My answer was no. The die has been cast. And just like kamma (karma), there can be consequences to behaviors we choose. None of us is a perfect person. One of the lessons I learned in my life was to not nag people. Give guidance when asked, but never nag. Respect people's choices, but don't let them place their choices on me or others.
You're a good person. And you are thinking and reflecting.
Very revealing and sincerely presented. Gram really needs your forgiveness, phet, so she can move on. Surely the number of years she nagged you have been surpassed by the number of years you have resented her and not forgiven her. Anyway, this is not nagging and I am not pushing anything, just suggesting.
Not the definition of "Cherry picking" I know better...
"Cherry picking is the act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position."
Even with your definition, it's not hard to equate what is "most beneficial or profitable" and opportunistic when it comes to picking what facts you want to use to make an argument vs what facts are best left unmentioned...
Just to make clear, that was the first definition I came to when I did a search. It happens to also be my definition of the term.
I do agree that like most thought processes, cherry picking can be misused.
But you go ahead. You can have the rotten cherries. Pass the good ones on to me.
The piles either balance the scale of objective observation and consideration or tilt the scale in the direction of one agenda or another. Few are able to manage or promote a balanced scale as we all tend to put our thumb on one end or the other to help tilt the balance just a tad in the direction we prefer. Just a tad by some. Others with all their might...
well, you and I are in complete agreement. I get less hung up on connotations and work more what the persons means. so "cherry picking" has a negative connotation. you are correct. I turned that frown up side down.
so now, we get back to what the person actually said ,"he cherry picked".
I go over and look at what he did. is the cherry picking more or less valid than the pile of the man that accused him of cherry picking
Were you taught annihilation or a separation from god?
What bad thing were you taught if you were naughty?
Could I consider your probing questions and pointed comments on many threads a form of "atheist proselytizing?"
No separation of God from people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy
You're welcome and thank you. I've been to your thread and posted an addition there - something I hope might be useful to you. I had an idea you might have started a thread on those lines.
And on your life story - I think you did good.
Thanks, I am glad my thread on anxiety was useful and that you made a great contribution to it. Awesome!
As far as my life story...I don't really have any significant accomplishments...I do work hard and try to be honest. I try to love and serve others as Jesus did. But...I am about a month away from turning 19 so I have time to accomplish something.
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Originally Posted by phetaroi
2. Peddling. One thing you have to understand is that most Buddhists do not believe in proselytizing.
Quakers really don't either.
Look at colonial history. Massachusetts was founded by Puritans and they would exile religious dissenters like Anne Hutchinson. Pennsylvania was founded by Quakers and quickly became a minority in our own colony as we don't believe in forcing others to our own views.
We have a history of pacifism and many today are still pacifists.
I asked the question, because your comments on proselytizing earlier were absolutes...something along the lines of 'if a Christian proselytizes they better be cleaner than the driven snow.'
My religious teachings tell me to try to avoid absolutes.
Technically I have kind of done it to my brother...although he was already religious at the time...and in elementary at the time too.
Also, I think pretty close to all adults push their morals onto others....as I've stated voting is a form of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
3. One year when I was a principal a notebook of what I will call "thoughts for the day" was available. The kinds of things that were positive and good endings to the morning announcements. They were typically good moral lessons that could be summarized in about a minute each. A frequent theme was "The Golden Rule".
That is good. I think God interacts in different ways with different people and even different cultures. There are truths of God in Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, non-religious stories, etc...
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
4. ….Do I think you're misguided? Yes,…...Last year, for the first time in many years, I went to a psychic...one I didn't know. I told her nothing. Just let her do the reading.
You're a good person. And you are thinking and reflecting.
...I think psychics are misguided. I don't believe that they have magical powers that God lets them tap into. I think they are good at reading human reactions and good at making general statements until they get something they can latch on to.
...I don't want to hurt your experiences that you've had, but when I researched it hoping to contact my mother...it just didn't seem legit. So many proven fraudsters. I think Sylvia Browne was one who was caught lying before.
I could be wrong though.....I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again. So don't stop going if you believe it and find value in it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy
I have posted my self help on QuackerBaker's thread.
I am not a duck....
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Not the definition of "Cherry picking" I know better...
Cherry picking in girl's soccer is where an offensive player like a striker refuses to play any defense at any point whatsoever and just hangs back looking for open spaces to try and get easy opportunities to get a good run and shot off on the other goal. It is used as a derogatory term usually in that the player is looking more for personal stats than helping the team as a whole.
Last edited by QuakerBaker; 05-15-2020 at 09:05 PM..
Of course we have control of our minds or we would not be able to function. The trick it seems to me is to use what control we have of our minds to help manage what control we don't.
i have two such experiences with my children. I tried telling that when people are acting irrational you don't act the same way. If they are calling you names and whatnot its only as real as you make it. I also said, meaning so long as they are not interfering with your actions. We may have to address it but we don't have to be it.
long story short and neighborhood confrontation with a father. I come out after and My kid is sitting on the grass while this dude is walking away from him back to his house. I came out and asked the mom next door what happen. bla bla bla ... some ol'stuff.
I asked my kid "how are ya, you ok?" he said Yeah dad I am fine, you said its ok not not to engage crazy and his words are only as real as I make them. yuppers, for this city boy, sometimes breaking the cycle is the best we can do.
Not our freeways. There is always a shoulder you can pull onto or an exit not far ahead...
Of course that's on the freeways that were close to our home back during my wife's anxiety days. She did in fact pull over more than once when she felt an anxiety attack coming on. Doing so further helped her sense of how to deal with anxiety generally speaking. Wish I/we could really know what all allowed her to be free of those attacks over time. Probably a combination of things.
No doubt you are right about some freeways however. I've driven many where you can't really pull over, including in Thailand where driving is truly a wild experience whether on the freeways or off. Their infamous "invisible middle lane" is an experience we won't soon forget either...
Not our freeways. There is always a shoulder you can pull onto or an exit not far ahead...
Of course that's on the freeways that were close to our home back during my wife's anxiety days. She did in fact pull over more than once when she felt an anxiety attack coming on. Doing so further helped her sense of how to deal with anxiety generally speaking. Wish I/we could really know what all allowed her to be free of those attacks over time. Probably a combination of things.
No doubt you are right about some freeways however. I've driven many where you can't really pull over, including in Thailand where driving is truly a wild experience whether on the freeways or off. Their infamous "invisible middle lane" is an experience we won't soon forget either...
The key to driving in Thailand is to forget about how Americans drive and try to start thinking like Thais do.
well, you and I are in complete agreement. I get less hung up on connotations and work more what the persons means. so "cherry picking" has a negative connotation. you are correct. I turned that frown up side down.
so now, we get back to what the person actually said ,"he cherry picked".
I go over and look at what he did. is the cherry picking more or less valid than the pile of the man that accused him of cherry picking
Cherry picking is sure evidence that confirmation bias is in the house...
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I am not a duck.... 
